Vaccine Passports and Compensation

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IF THERE’S ONE VIDEO YOU WATCH FROM SENATE ESTIMATES MAKE IT THIS ONE.

I questioned the Government about vaccines, the indemnities it has provided to vaccine manufacturers and whether the government actually has a plan to stop restrictive lockdowns. These are common sense questions about liability and informed consent, let’s see if the tech-censors agree.

Also see part 2 to these questions here: https://www.malcolmrobertsqld.com.au/informed-consent-and-vaccine-passports-department-of-health-part-2/

Transcript

Thank you. Senator Roberts.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you, Chair. And thank you for appearing today. Many Australians have heard that getting vaccinated does not stop us from getting COVID, and that if we do get it we could still infect other people. Is that true?

– Yes – I guess Dr. Kelly onto that.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. What is the risk of being infected by a vaccinated person with COVID compared to an unvaccinated person with COVID?

So, just repeat the question.

[Malcolm Roberts] What is the risk of being infected by a vaccinated person who has COVID compared with an unvaccinated person with COVID?

Well, it’s lower. I’m not sure I can give you an exact amount. I think Professor Murphy earlier talked about the issue and also Senator Colbeck, about the issue of transmission and how the vaccine affects that. We’re getting more information, and it seems like there is a definite influence on transmission, decreasing transmission somewhere between 30 and 60% less likely.

[Malcolm Roberts] Is that a mass figure or is that if you had COVID and you were vaccinated compared with if you had COVID and weren’t vaccinated, would I have the same risk or lesser risk?

You would have a much lower risk, but it’s not zero.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, thank you. What decrease in transmission of infection would stop restrictions such as lockdowns, masks, and social distancing?

So, that’s a matter that we’ve been charged by national cabinet way as in Australian Health Protection Principal Committee of which I chair, by the national cabinet to look at. And so, it’s a matter for the national cabinet. There will be, there’s a series of papers that we’re preparing exactly to answer those questions. Some have been produced already and presented and there’ll be more in the coming meetings.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. How many times and how often would each of us need to be injected for the vaccine to be effective and for each time, for how long does the effect last?

So, as I mentioned earlier in the hearing, very good protection from one dose of vaccine, either the AstraZeneca or Pfizer particularly in relation to severe infection, but also to symptomatic infection, and to a lesser extent asymptomatic infection. So, that’s a single dose. The second dose is important for both of those vaccines. And most of the vaccines that are currently being used around the world require two doses to give a longer effect and a more deep effect, if you like, in terms of protection. I think it’s very important that Australia knows that this is the start of our vaccine programme. It will almost certainly not be the end. There will be a need for boosters into the future particularly in relation to the variants of concern of which there are four now that have been designated by the World Health Organisation. And some of those we already know do affect the vaccine efficacy. So, it’s likely we will need to have boosters into the future. How long the two dose effect works is still, we don’t know. We know it’s at least six months because that’s the studies of, been looking at it for six months. It’s almost certainly longer than that for the original strain, but the variance of concern adds another complexity to it.

[Malcolm Roberts] Can you guarantee Australians that all the vaccines you have obtained are 100% safe?

I can’t say that they were 100% safe, Senator, no.

[Malcolm Roberts] I do appreciate your honesty. How many years will it be before we know the long-term and intergenerational effects of these vaccines that only have provisional approval?

I might ask my colleague from the TGA to come up to answer that one.

John Skerritt, Deputy Secretary, Health Products Regulation, also responsible for the TGA. So, TGA, unlike the U.S. and the UK, for example, did a provisional approval of a vaccines as opposed to an emergency use authorization. The reason why it is a provisional approval is because we don’t have, for example, as Professor Kelly has just said, information on the duration of protection from these vaccines. And we require that the companies to give us that sort of information in the coming years. I mean, no one has those answers now. There’s some encouraging results, but as Professor Kelly has said, it’s likely that further vaccinations will be required. As part of the approval of any medicine or vaccine, big companies together with us are involved in very extensive safety monitoring. And we publish the results of the safety monitoring of that vaccine every week including mild or 24 hour adverse events, right through to those that might be much more serious and require hospitalisation. And no medicine or vaccine is without adverse events, but on balance, the number of adverse events, especially serious adverse events for these vaccines are comparatively low. The overwhelming majority of people vaccinated from them at worst suffer the 24 or 48 hours sore arm or tiredness, fatigue, et cetera.

[Malcolm Roberts] So, thank you. It’s a very comprehensive response. So, to summarise, we don’t know yet, but you’re relying upon company, the vaccine makers, to feed you back information as time moves on.

No, information on safety comes from a wide range of sources. It comes from the states and territories. For GP vaccination agreements, the GPs make an undertaking to also report any adverse events. The companies are legally bound to report adverse events not only in Australia, but also globally. And of course we share, and in fact at nine, 10 o’clock tonight we’ll be having one of our regular fortnightly video conferences. We share information on adverse events with all the major regulators globally. So, and the final sources from a medical scientific literature. So, while the companies have this legal requirement to report, it’s only one of a number of inputs to understanding adverse events. And many of our adverse event reports come directly from doctors or even individuals. Any individual can report an adverse event directly to us.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you, moving onto another topic away from vaccines for a minute, the vaccine only has provisional approval. Is it true that provisional approval is only possible where there are no approved pharmaceutical treatments available?

The provisional approval is possible where there is not a similar treatment available in that, for that group of patients. And so, if there’d been an approved vaccine, but say it had been on the market for several years, fully approved, then it wouldn’t have been possible to provisionally approve a vaccine, but at the time of the submissions of those vaccines, and indeed we have provisionally designated the Novavax vaccine as well and the Johnson & Johnson or Janssen vaccine, it is possible to provisionally designate and potentially provisionally approve those vaccines.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. Ivermectin is an antiviral that’s been proven safe in 3.6 billion human doses over 60 years. It’s now demonstrating success in treating COVID internationally, including in certain Indian states that are performing far better than the other states without it. Last time you were here, sorry Dr. Murphy and, Professor Murphy and Professor Kelly, you acknowledged that cures and preventatives are a fundamental and complimentary part of a virus management strategy. What is your timeline for the assessment and use of Ivermectin in light of the emerging evidence and it’s historical setting.

Senator, we have not received a submission for Ivermectin for the treatment of COVID. I have had a number of people write to me and say, “Why haven’t you folks approved?” We can’t make a medicine submission to ourselves for regulatory approval. There’s no provision in law for us because it requires a legal sponsor. But we have said to people if you come with a dossier of information we will review it as a priority. Now, if you go to the broader community including the company that is the main originator company that is a sponsor of Ivermectin, they do not believe that the overwhelming balance of evidence actually supports that Ivermectin being effective in the prophylaxis or prevention or the treatment of COVID. However, our doctors and scientists would look at that evidence with open eyes. And so, it is open for any sponsor to put an application in for Ivermectin to the TGA for regulatory approval.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. Moving back to the vaccine, the government has provided an indemnity to vaccine suppliers, as I understand it, and multinational pharmaceutical companies who have caused harm in the past. What is the nature of the indemnities that government has provided, and are they full indemnities?

Yeah, just give me a moment. Sorry, Senator, going to a wholly different part of my folder.

[Malcolm Roberts] You’ve got a lot on your plate.

So, just to go to your question, I understand it. You’re wanting to know exactly the nature of the indemnities provided, obviously–

[Malcolm Roberts] That the government has provided to the vaccine manufacturers and suppliers.

So, in the first instance to say that the actual detail of the indemnities is part of the Commercial in Confidence contracts, but I can provide you some information about the nature of what’s provided. So, we’ve agreed to certain indemnities with the COVID-19 vaccine suppliers. They’re contained in commercially confidential contracts. The indemnities are designed to operate if there are problems with the flow on from the vaccines themselves, as opposed to the manner of administration and so on, they don’t cover that. Details of the agreement are Commercial in Confidence, but nothing in any of the contractual agreements from individual companies would stop individuals from seeking to litigate should an individual seek to do so in the future.

[Malcolm Roberts] Sorry, could you repeat that again, please.

So, the actual detail of the indemnity, it relates to the nature of the vaccine itself as opposed to the manner of administration or any other issue to do with how it’s transported and so on. But it is absolutely the case that nothing in the indemnities prevents an individual from taking an action against the manufacturer or against anybody, if there’s an issue that arises from the impact of the vaccine. So, the summary of the arrangements are that they ensure that manufacturers have the significant indemnity in place to allow them to come into the marketplace and provide the protection, but they don’t prevent any action being taken by an individual who might be affected by a vaccine.

[Malcolm Roberts] So, what would they be? Why would they need an indemnity if they, they can still be sued? I don’t understand that. I’m not a lawyer, but.

I was once, but it’s a long time ago.

[Malcolm Roberts] You could say, I’m honest with you. Now, we’ve got lawyers as good friends. We’ve got good friends.

So, no one’s saying I’m . It’s to do with the relationship between the government and the company.

[Malcolm Roberts] What is the nature of that relationship?

Well, those are the things that are confidential in the contracts. You’d appreciate in order to get these vaccines into Australia so that we have access to them, there are strict requirements in the way the contracts are done with the companies and confidentiality. And the nature of the indemnities are part of that confidentiality.

[Malcolm Roberts] In the event of an injury or death from the vaccine, who pays compensation?

Not a question I can answer in the abstract. It would depend on the circumstances and so on and how the legal process would go on. As I say, the indemnities with manufacturers relate only to the flow on from the vaccine itself. So, in the event that negligence happens in any mechanism then it could be actionable against the person who had done the negligence, but there’s no simple answer to who pays compensation ’cause compensation would have to be found to be payable and attributable to someone and so on.

[Malcolm Roberts] So, it’d be pretty challenging, Ms. Edwards, for an individual to sue that they’ve just lost their spouse or their son or daughter, because, I’ll just go through some of the settlements in the past or some of the fines. Pfizer has paid the second largest pharmaceutical settlement in history, $2.3 billion in 2009, off-label promotion and kickbacks plus US$ 430 million in 2004 for off-label promotion. AstraZeneca has paid US$ 520 million in 2010 off-label promotion and kickbacks and US$ 355 million in 2003 for Medicare fraud. Johnson & Johnson has paid US$ 2.2 billion in 2013 for off label promotion and kickbacks plus millions in Australia last year for defective pelvic mesh implants. It’d be a pretty brave person that would hope to get anything out of this if they tried to sue any of these companies. These guys have a history of dodging.

Well, I’m not aware of any of the instances you’re referring to, but clearly there have been instances in which action has been taken against these companies.

[Malcolm Roberts] Are these companies appropriate to be entered into an agreement in this way? I mean, look at the history.

So, the Australian government and Australian consumers have the advantage of pharmaceutical products produced by companies such as these and many others. Obviously, enormously important to the health of Australians that they have access to medicines, including vaccines. We rely heavily on the scientific advice from the CMO, from the TGA and from experts as to what is the appropriate vaccine to be approved and used in the country. And those are the vaccines which we have purchased and are administering.

[Malcolm Roberts] I’m going–

[Member] Senator Roberts…

Senator, I think that perhaps I might throw this in In relation to this. The approvals for the vaccines have been based on a considerable amount of data. The approvals haven’t been provided lightly. And we have had the advantage of the visibility of the application of the vaccines in a number of other jurisdictions. It’s an important question that you ask, I think. And so, it’s not a company reputational issue, it’s actually the data that supports the application of the vaccines that is assessed by not only our regulatory authorities, but also the regulatory authorities in other jurisdictions. And also the fact that, as has already been indicated, there is a lot of discussion between those authorities in relation to that data. So, it’s interrogated as a part of the approval process not only in this jurisdiction, but in others, and I might…

[Malcolm Roberts] I understand it’s, perhaps you could also include reference to this Doctors Skerritt that some of the overseas nations that are using these vaccines have suspended their use.

Well, there’s several questions. I’ll return to suspension of use although it’s been relatively limited in countries like Norway. But to talk about those fines for the companies, I should clarify that it’s a consequence of one of the things that personally I hope Australia never follows. And this is the U.S. widespread advertising directly to the public of prescription medicines. And it is legal and extremely commonplace. You only have to have the TV on for five minutes in your hotel room to see an advertisement for prescription medicine in the United states. And however, it is tempting for some of these companies. And they’ve been found with major fines from court cases when they push for sorts of conditions, what we call the indications for which a medicine is approved. So, a medicine may be approved for certain sorts of arthritis and their marketing people think it’s a great idea to talk about arthritis in general, and that’s where they get these multi hundred million dollar fines. So, if you go into those cases in the U.S. it’s not about them providing defective vaccines or cheating with their quality data or cheating with their clinical data. Almost all those cases come down to inappropriate promotion because of the, I guess the temptation the United States systems offers of allowing to advertise prescription medicines directly to the public. Now, thank God we don’t have that system in this country.

[Malcolm Roberts] That’s still a matter of ethics, though, isn’t it? That the companies are pushing that, it’s their marketing people they are employing.

It’s their marketing people, and of course, we could mention many well-known Australian corporations who have also had challenges with marketing, including of telecommunication services. Now, we also —

[Malcolm Roberts] But they also go to the essence of integrity of the company?

But in Australia, we do look closely at promotion, including to doctors. So, recently we fined a particular company over $300,000 for what we concluded was inappropriate promotion of opiates to doctors. This wasn’t of a general public, but it was still inappropriate in our view. So, we will take action if we believe promotion of a product is inappropriate. Now, talking about companies in countries that have suspended vaccines, there were a number of short term suspensions of vaccines. For example, when some deaths in aged care were reported very early in the new year, they were then lifted off after further investigation where it was found that sadly people die in aged care. And the death rates were not all that different from the expected death rates. There were then short term changes, suspensions in some countries after the initial clotting cases were found AstraZeneca. In most countries, although Norway, for example, was an exception, most countries have re-introduced those vaccines, but like Australia, many of them have age recommendations. And those ages vary between countries.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you.

Senator Roberts, you’ve just run out of time. So, if you’ve got one more question.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. After the TGA had already provisionally approved the AstraZeneca vaccine, Minister Hunt said of the vaccines quote – “The world is engaged in the largest clinical trial, the largest global vaccination trial ever”. Australians later died of blood clots due to the vaccine, a side effect that was not known prior to provisional approval. Why should Australians be the lab rats of a drug trial?

So, the word trial really, I mean, the treatment of COVID. And none of us has a crystal ball, where we’ll end up, whether it’s opening the borders or changes to the way we live our lives in a year or two is probably one of the biggest societal trials we’ve had since World War II. So, it’s true to say that because we don’t know whether vaccines are 100%, 90%, 80%, 70, 50, 60 in preventing transmission because we don’t know about the duration of protection, all those things. It is a trial in the sense that anything is new. So, that was a context. If you look at the wider context in which the Minister made those comments. Now, on the issue of benefit versus risk, every medicine or vaccine has significant risks. There’s been many dozen deaths due to Panadol in this country. And yet, if we didn’t have that drug for the relief of simple fever and so forth, there’d be a lot of people suffering. And so, every medicine has its benefits and its risks. Now, because the clotting thing is very rare, even though the trials were extremely large as trials go, 20, 30,000 people, and there’s been another 30,000 people on a follow-up trial of the AstraZeneca. Those numbers were still too low, but you would predict something would be seen 10 in a million times. And so, that’s why the clotting thing was not picked up.

[Malcolm Roberts] Isn’t there still something really big, outstanding though and that is that these are an RNA vaccine?

[Professor John] No, the AstraZeneca vaccine–

[Malcolm Roberts] Some of them, sorry, are RNA. How long before we know the intergenerational effects?

[Professor John] There’s no evidence at all from animal or human studies that the RNA vaccines, if you’re talking about them, incorporate into the genetic material of human beings. They wouldn’t have been approved for regulatory approval and that includes by much bigger regulators such as the FDA, if these bits of mRNA incorporated into the human genetic material. In fact, medicines that incorporate into human genetic material and are inherited are currently not permitted in most major countries, including Australia.

[Malcolm Roberts] So, what you’re saying is that it is okay to have a few deaths?

I’m saying that every medicine or vaccine is assessed both before it goes onto the market and once it’s on the market based on benefit and risk. And in Australia, we’ve had, sadly, one death. We’ve had a number of cases of this clotting syndrome, but the really encouraging thing is that many of our cases seem to be milder than in our countries. And that’s because of such widespread awareness. These cases are picked up early, they’re put in hospitals, even if it’s minor clotting, and the really good news is that, the overwhelming majority of those people were already out of hospital.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you, Chair.

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Will Australia Post apologise to Christine Holgate?

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A damning 255 page report has slammed the board of Australia Post and found that Christine Holgate did not breach any policies. We know from the small businesses that operate licensed post offices that Christine Holgate was well respected and had a reputation for actually getting problems fixed. I questioned Australia Post at Senate Estimates.

Transcript

[Malcolm Roberts] Disappointing to note that the CEO of Australia Post, the former CEO of Australia Post, Christine Holgate, has taken up a new role rather than pursuing a return to work in Australia Post. I’ll explain more about why it’s disappointing in a minute. In denying Ms. Holgate “her legal principles of procedural fairness and natural justice,” can Australia Post employees, licensees, and customers expect the same treatment as she got?

Senator, I’d prefer not to comment on matters dealing with the board and that have been very well dealt with, with the inquiry and the 255 page reading that we’ve received yesterday. But I think those matters should be kept entirely separate from the matters that happen on a day to day basis at Australia Post. I think that they’re very different matters-

[Malcolm Roberts] I can imagine you-

Those matters have been well covered.

[Malcolm Roberts] I can imagine you are advocating that, but the description of your board chairman’s behaviour in giving evidence to both Senate estimates and committee’s subsequent inquiry has shown him to, at best, have an appalling memory, and, at worst, at being deliberately evasive and misleading. I’ll just relate a personal example, personal interactions with the LPOs, because this issue about what happened to Christine Holgate goes well beyond Ms. Holgate. It goes to the goes to Australia Post. The ministers have done enormous damage, I believe, to Australia Post and to the LPOs. Now I’ve been pursuing issues for the LPOs strongly and vigorously. We’ve gone out into the regions and we’ve listened to people in the city LPOs, and they have told us, for years, that their needs have not been met. They’ve not been listened to. They’ve been abused. They’ve been trod on. So prior to Ms. Holgate becoming the CEO, that’s the way the LPOs are treated. And what stunned me, was the LPOs is just swung straight in behind Ms. Holgate. Very, very strongly behind her. And they said that, she actually told me later, that due to my questions in Senate estimates, she said, “There’s a problem here.” And she went out and listened. And the LPOs were very, very grateful for that. And they swung in right behind her. Angela Cramp from the LPOs, very strong advocate. The LPO is we’re writing letters to us, saying how much they appreciate Ms. Holgate. They’ve never had that kind of support and now they’ve lost it. And the way she’s been dismissed has left a lot of people wondering what’s going on in Australia Post. That’s why it’s so important.

Senator, if I could try and separate those issues and matters that have been dealt with well by the inquiry in the former CEO. But I could give you my, having grown up on a farm myself, and coming from regional Western Australia, and joining Australia Post because of its far reach into regional and rural Australia, I appreciate, as does Ms. Sheffield, who looks after community and consumers and all of the LPOs, how important the LPOs are to Australia Post. We are absolutely committed to the LPOs. And as Ms. Sheffield said, the first round of payment reform was what 55 million increase in additional payments. So there is a significant amount of support within Australia Post here at this desk today and back in the offices right across Australia Post. So, we do appreciate everything the LPOs do. They’re a very important part of the Australia Post. And will be for a long time to come out, I hope.

[Malcolm Roberts] But we’ll be assessing it by listening to the LPOs, as to what happens, because they are Australia Post in many communities. And they’re the community, they’re the heart of many communities. So-

Senator, and just take that on board. When I sat down with the chair of the Australia Post Advisory eh-

[Ms. Sheffield] APLAC.

APLAC. I always get the acronym wrong. Outside his LPO and discussed matters, and we are listening to LPOs every day. It’s very important.

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, I just had a text message from Angela Cramp. And she’s saying, “He has had no contact with LPOs since he took over the role. He’s not responded to anyone.”

From Ms. Cramp-

[Malcolm Roberts] To me.

Directed at me?

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes.

I haven’t had direct contact with Ms. Cramp. As I said, I sat down with the chairman of APLAC, and I’m out in post offices, corporate and LPOs alike. So, as Ms. Sheffield, on a regular basis.

[Malcolm Roberts] We hope it doesn’t go back to the way it was pre-Holgate.

Can I also add to that, Senator? We have worked very hard to build those relationships with licensees. We understand and value licensees incredibly. This week, we had an APLAC board where we brought everyone together, which Angela Cramp is a National Director on. We, you know, we’ve just finished six weeks of road shows, where all licensees were invited to the communities and we will be coming, well hopefully, COVID permitting, in Woolongong next week for, you know, to ensure that we hear from our licensees because we agree with you. We have to listen. There is a lot of change happening in our community. There’s a lot of change to their business, and there’s a lot of change that needs to be there to support them. And whether it’s in looking at what products they’re offering, outlets, payments, lots of consultation, and we really do value the input that they have, in both associations, both LPOG and POALL provide a lot of input and provide, not just to myself, but to teams of people at Australia Post that really are there to do the best. And we don’t want anything to go back. It won’t go back. This payment reform is written. It’s an agreement. It is there to stay, and the next phase will be an agreement. So, really it is, it is there to really support them and help them to grow. Because we know when LPOs thrive, Australia Post thrives. And that’s why we created the payment reforms so that they’re not, it’s not a cost, it’s actually a cost of sale. It’s based on growth. So as e-commerce grows, they grow, because they get a greater share of parcel revenue, which they never got before. So the whole basis of how that set up, actually, is there to drive their growth and ensure that their businesses grow.

[Malcolm Roberts] Right. And as you said, it didn’t happen before. Thanks to Ms. Holgate, it has happened. So we’ll be watching very, very closely because we don’t want to see it go back to the previous days. Will you be implementing Senator Pauline Hanson’s recommendations as part of the committee’s recommendation and report that came down yesterday that the Australia Post chair, Mr. Lucio Di Bartolomeo, be removed from the board, given the scathing conclusions and comments about his behaviour?

Senator, thank you very much for that question. I don’t think it’s the responsibility of the acting group chief executive to comment on the chair. The chair has put a statement out yesterday afternoon saying he’s committed to continuing to lead Australia Post. So, but it’s not for the acting management, and as acting CEO to comment on, on that.

[Malcolm Roberts] I’ve had other questions on services so I’ll put them on notice.

That’d be great.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you very much.

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Audit the election software

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I asked the AEC about the new software they used for counting votes. Concerns have been raised about previous AEC software by cryptologists and the National Audit Office.

The AEC claims to have written new software that fixes all of these problems, but they won’t tell us who audited it and what the results were. An open and transparent audit is absolutely necessary to ensure there is 100% confidence in our elections.

Transcript

Thank you, Miss Jay.

Thanks Senator Sullivan, Senator Roberts.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. And thank you for appearing today. My questions apart from the first and third, fairly brief. So the first one, in reference to testimony at the last estimates, and I’ve I’ve got copies of your questions on that, responses to your questions and that is. The AEC bought but did not use the Scytl software. Rather you write your own. To write your own election software is a really impressive feat. We’ve been talking to people, they’re very impressed. May I ask how many staff are on the development team please?

I’d have to take that on notice.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. What was the total cost of doing that?

I’d have to take that on notice.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. What testing did you use before deployment now I’d imagine some kind of parallel running or some form of a dry run.

Well, in fact, we did multiple forms of testing and assurance Senator, as I’m sure you would as I’m sure you’d be aware. And look Senator, to be abundantly helpful here, we’re happy to provide you a more detailed personal briefing on this. I’m happy to talk to you about it. It is a complex process. As you’re aware, we’ve been using our audit, our checked software, easy CAAT for a number of years and we’ve redeveloped that that’s effectively what we deployed as part of the 2016 solution. As I think we said last time, the Siedel solution, we got Seidel on board as really as a business assurance process to make sure that we had software that was going to work at 12 week period to deliver it. The software we’re using has been checked, double-checked and assured. And not only that, the important point to note it’s totally in line with the existing legislation and all of the data that we then generate from that software is put online and the results are then replicated by a number of psephologists and political science departments who use that data to replicate the count. And it exactly matches the outcome of their own. So there’s a range of different ways of assuring that this software is fit for purpose.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, thank you. Still part of the first question. Were any of the staff involved doctorate or masters degree qualified in a suitable discipline such as mathematics or cryptology?

Senator I’d have to take that on notice.

[Malcolm Roberts] Could we get their names please? When you provide it a notice?

No.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. And how long did it take?

We had for the 2016 process we had that 12 week periods in Israel, as I’ve said previously.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yeah. And can you provide their qualifications?

Senator again, if you can help me here on letting me know where you’re trying to head, maybe I can provide some more fulsome answers.

[Malcolm Roberts] Perhaps we can, we can go into that in the briefing. I’d love to take you up on that. So did your bespoke solution use any code from Scytl and if so, what percentage?

It did not.

[Malcolm Roberts] None at all. Great. Your software, you intimated has been audited in accordance with standards published by the National Association of Testing Authorities, NADA. That certification does not specify a standard for the auditing of election software. It’s more of a general process for an audit to follow, as I understand it. Having the audit is not a guarantee that your software works within acceptable accuracy levels. Although these issues may come out in an audit who conducted the audit and how much did it cost and what was the result?

Senator as I’ve just said, if you can help me here by telling me where you’re trying to head with this process I would get some of these questions. If somehow the results of this were somehow secret or behind closed doors. We use a piece of software that’s been tested and assured on multiple occasions. The same time, all of the data that this software produces is then publicly published on our virtual teller even on our website, which on election day, as one of the most used pages in Australia, that data is then used by a variety of psephologists and computer and political science experts to replicate those results. It’s intensely public. If you’re trying to indicate that there’s some sort of issue, I just don’t understand why you’d be doing that when there’s been no evidence of that at all.

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, we were just concerned about the auditing. That’s all. Because we got some answers from the, I think it was a Nao that didn’t give us the assurance. So let’s go onto some of the physical things then of the 511 polling places in the last election. How many of those had computers or other devices that communicated with the AEC computer system or were capable of doing so?

Senator I’m Jeff Pope, deputy electoral commissioner. I’m not sure what you’re referring to with 511 polling places we had nearly 8,000.

[Malcolm Roberts] Could that be state?

Perhaps you might be referring to–

[Malcolm Roberts] While it is not a mandatory requirement for pre-poll voting centres at the 2019 federal election. 115 of the 511 people voting centres. So pre-poll, sorry, pre-poll. My mistake.

[Man] Right.

[Malcolm Roberts] Had me worried there.

You had me worried.

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, just how many have got a physical connection? How many had a physical connection?

For what purpose, Senator?

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, I’m going to go into that in the next few questions.

Many in terms of the role. And–

There are, we have electronic certified lists in every I think in every one of those pre-poll centres last event where citizens names and marked off the roll.

[Malcolm Roberts] No, it’s beyond that. I note from your answer on questions on notice F-O six five on polling place security, that those electronic devices were protected by monitored back to base alarm in only 115 of the 511 polling places. Were any other measures in place to protect the cyber integrity of those devices during the election period? For example were they air gaped, were they turned off at night, was there IP traffic monitoring for the period when they should have been none because they were turned off? That’s what we’re after.

I think all of your thoughts–

[Malcolm Roberts] You think?–

So we’ll take it on notice. But again, we’ve had no issue with any breach of our software or our hardware, with respect to delivery of the election–

At all, and no indicator of any breach and our handling of all of that data. And the physical equipment was in line with relevant Commonwealth guidelines and regulations and the risk assessment that we undertook.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. I’m just doing my job on behalf of my constituents.

I get it Senator. And I’m doing my job.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes.

On also defending one of the world’s best and most transparent electoral systems.

[Malcolm Roberts] Well I’m not attacking it. I’m just making sure that–

Fantastic. And so we’re both doing our jobs in terms of making sure that citizens have the information they need to form their judgements.

[Malcolm Roberts] Correct. I’ve only got three questions to go. In your response to questions on notice F-0 six eight, you make the comment, ” All preferences and all Senate ballot papers are reviewed by at least one person at the scanning side.” Does that mean that they compare the scanned ballot with the paper ballot to ensure accuracy? Because that’s the impression your answer gives. Do they compare the actual scanned ballot with the paper ballot?

Senator the process is that a data is both manually entered and scanned and then that’s matched with the automated process–

[Malcolm Roberts] All the ballot papers are manually entered?

Manually entered but all paper is scanned when it first arrives. Then from that image which is an image that data is then entered. And then the scan, the data from the scan is then compared with that to make sure that they match. Where they don’t match, we undertake further processes.

[Malcolm Roberts] Could you explain that in terms of, we have a physical paper ballot that is scanned in–

[Man] Correct.

[Malcolm Roberts] And then–

And then it captures an image.

[Malcolm Roberts] Right. And then what is compared with that image?

That image is then presented to the Data Entry Operator who enters the data from that image–

[Malcolm Roberts] From the image–

Right.

[Malcolm Roberts] So he or she enters it physically.

Correct.

[Malcolm Roberts] So that’s the manual part.

That’s the manual part, then at the same time the data capture process as part of capturing the image is then compared with that manual process. Where that matches, that’s taken to be an accurate match. And that’s included in the count. Where it doesn’t match, we undertake further processes.

[Malcolm Roberts] So that last estimates in October, I asked what percentage of computer records that checked back against the paper record. And you took that on notice, your lengthy answer failed to provide a figure. Is that because it’s a hundred percent?

Which was the question Senator?

[Malcolm Roberts] I asked what percentage of computer records are checked back against the paper record? And you took that a notice, your lengthy answer, which is I think F-068. Hang on, it might be zero eight four. Sorry, zero eight, four. So, as I was saying your lengthy answer failed to provide a figure. Counting ballots is a quantitative exercise. So everything comes down to figures. What percentage of electronic voting cards are compared back to the ballot paper and what is the variance?

I wonder whether we’re talking about different things here, Senator. The process that I’ve just been through demonstrates that every single paper.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you.

Yep.

[Malcolm Roberts] Last question . On this topic, anyway. Has the AEC ever run a test batch of a few thousand ballot papers through your system then run those same ballots through a second time and compared the result? Surely any variance between these two runs would give you a figure for system accuracy.

Again, Senator I’d rely on what I’ve just said before that the process that we’re running involves a full manual entry of every single ballot paper compared then to the scanning, capture of the scanned data. So we’re doing that in any case.

[Malcolm Roberts] That that’s what I thought. Okay. Just a final question. Just to lose question. I was thinking as, the senators were asking questions. Voters tell us quite often that they’re then not in favour of being assaulted by a number of how to vote cards distributors being volunteers, distributing how to vote cards when they’re entering a polling booth and some of the premises managers getting to have a bit of strife with it too. I don’t know. I haven’t read the act that covers this, but would there be any possibility or any consideration given to putting the, how to vote cards in the booth or is that fundamentally flawed?

Absolutely not Senator yet. I know what you’re saying that occasionally people do so that. What I’d say in defensive 99.9% of all of the party workers is most people strive to do the right thing.

[Man] Yeah.

We have a few over-excited individuals that really like to get those how to vote cards in the hands of voters. And that can cause some offence but most people do the right thing. We would never put a how to votes in the polling place, because then get confused and think we’re endorsing a particular process and it creates grief.

[Malcolm Roberts] What about if everyone was in there? Every party.

Same thing people then get confused and I’d be absolutely–

[Malcolm Roberts] That’s a fair comment. So if someone’s handing it they can stop them and ask questions about it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Senator Roberts.

/by

Integrity Commission needs to include judicial conduct

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Last year the government unveiled their totally lacking plan for a toothless Commonwealth Integrity Commission. Important powers and jurisdictions were completely missing from their proposal, including oversight of the conduct of judges.

When there are complaints about the judges, it is essentially up to the judiciary to investigate itself.

This type of self-regulation does not work, it always fails. That’s why a well-resourced, powerful, independent external agency is needed and would only increase confidence in the judiciary.

Transcript

[Malcolm Roberts] And today. My question’s too are in regard to establishing Federal Integrity Commission. First question. Is it the intention of the government to consider adding to the duties of such a Federal Integrity Commission, the overview of the judiciary and other officers of the court?

I think the former Attorney General had indicated that the coverage of the judiciary was an issue under consideration, but not necessarily within the integrity commission, because of constitutional complexities, but also looking at the possibility of a separate judicial commission.

[Malcolm Roberts] So it’s true, isn’t it, that there is currently virtually no authority with jurisdiction to overview the conduct and actions of the judiciary, many of whom are appointed for life?

So the federal judges are appointed to the age of 70 and then they have to retire. The current process is that if someone has a concern about a serving judge, they raise that with the Chief Justice or chief judge of that jurisdiction. The Chief Justice or Chief Judge is empowered to either appoint a conduct committee to investigate allegations made against a sitting judge or, alternatively, the Chief Justice or Chief Judge can refer the matter directly to the Attorney General, and there’s a process of where both houses of parliament can be asked whether they wish to make an address to the government general seeking to have the removal of a sitting judge on grounds of, for example, misbehaviour. So there is that process, but the conduct committee, appointed by the Chief Justice or chief judge is the first step.

[Malcolm Roberts] So there is… thank you. There is wide support for a commission with the jurisdiction to overview the conduct of the judiciary, coming out of the recent inquiry into family law, from retired judges, from academics, from constituents, and from the legal profession itself. So at the moment the errant judge’s conduct is not addressed under an independent system. Correct? You’ve just outlined that system.

That’s correct. Well, it’s an independent conduct committee, so it’s appointed by a Chief Justice or chief judge. It’s not composed of people from that court, so it’s independent to that extent, but they make a report to the Chief Justice of that court. So, no, it’s not a standing independent commission at the moment.

[Malcolm Roberts] And to trigger it requires someone from within the system?

It requires a person to make a complaint. So that might be a litigant, who has been disappointed with how a sitting judge has behaved. It could be someone who is a staff member, an observer, it could be anyone. Anyone who has a concern about a sitting judge can make a complaint.

[Malcolm Roberts] They can make a complaint, but whether or not it goes anywhere, it still depends on someone within the system?

It will then depend upon the relevant Chief Justice and what they wish to do with that complaint.

[Malcolm Roberts] Sorry, who heads up that independent conduct committee?

So it’s a matter for the respective chief general Chief Justice.

[Malcolm Roberts] So there’s one for each court?

They can appoint one per court. So for example, if it was a complaint, Senator Roberts mentioned a family law. For example, if there was a complaint about a sitting family court or federal circuit court judge practising in family law that’d be a matter for the Chief Justice of that family court or the chief judge of the federal circuit court to appoint a conduct committee to look into that particular allegation.

[Malcolm Roberts] So I just listed some of the areas we’ve had complaints from. So given the increasing number of complaints being level of judges based on their conduct, is it not time to ensure such complaints can be examined and addressed in a timely, reasonably costed way ensuring that there are real consequences if necessary?

So wait, my colleague, Ms. noted before that the previous attorney acknowledged there is certainly a question there about whether there should be a body, an integrity body that is able to look at complaints against sitting judges. That is something that the department is continuing to work on, but there are a range of complex constitutional and other legal issues that we’re working through. Attorney General Porter had said it’s perhaps a second order issue in terms of looking at integrity commission first, and then simply look at a judicial integrity type commission but it’s something we’re continuing to work on.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. So let’s change tact just for a minute for two short questions. What is being done in the way of suicide prevention for judges as well as for the victims of poor judicial behaviour?

So suicide prevention for judges is particularly a matter to address to the courts themselves in terms of what what measures they’re actually taking to looking after the wellbeing of judges sitting in the courts because things such as the allocation of work to judges and the allocation of support mechanisms are within the control of the chief judge or chief judge of each jurisdiction.

[Malcolm Roberts] So I imagine being a judge in certain circumstances would be very taxing emotionally. So it’s recognised that the stresses on judges may lead to a need for professional help for these judges. Is this assistance being provided at the moment at an adequate level?

So that would be a question better directed to to the federal courts. And I note that the family court and circuit court are appearing tomorrow, tomorrow at five o’clock.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you very much. And thank you chair. That’s all I have.

[Chair] Thank you very much Senator Roberts. Just as a followup question, in relation to where an independent conduct committee is appointed by Chief Justice about a complaint, a serious complaint in relation to a judge’s conduct what sanctions are available to that committee and ultimately to the Chief Justice?

It’s an excellent question To some extent there are measures that can be put into place by the head of a jurisdiction in terms of for example, does a judge require retraining or should a judge be moved from a particular court and practise in a different court. Things like that, are steps that are available to a judge. But if the concern of the head of that jurisdiction is that that judge should in fact no longer be a judge then they need to refer that to the Attorney General, who would then consider whether the matter should be brought to parliament again, for consideration of whether they should have been addressed by both houses of parliament and to seeking the removal of that sitting judge.

[Chair] Ultimately the power to remove a judge is in the hands of the parliament and the people…

In the hands of Governor General, ultimately

[Chair] Yes, but that’s obviously a very serious matter,

Extremely serious.

/by

Department of Agriculture Questioned at Estimates on Fire Ant Eradication Program

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Farmers at Gatton and beyond are petrified of the spread of destructive fire ants. Fire ants ravage crops and if they get into animals, they drive them crazy with pain. Left unchecked, they’ll turn productive areas effectively barren.

I asked the Department of Agriculture about what we are doing to eradicate them. Unfortunately, it looks like there isn’t enough money allocated to eradicate the destructive fire ants.

Transcript

[Malcolm Roberts] How much is it costing Australia in funding the fight against spread and ultimate eradication of fire ants?

[Mr Tongue] Senator, it’s approximately $450 million dollars. I’ll defer to my colleague Ms Laduzko.

[Mr Metcalfe] These are red imported fire ants?

Yeah, red imported fire ants.

[Malcolm Roberts] We’ve got domestic fire ants?

[Mr Metcalfe] No, we’ve also got the yellow crazy ants as well.

[Malcolm Roberts] We’ve got a lot of ants.

[Mr Ludisco] The red imported fire ants particularly which are a particular problem in the Brisbane Valley.

[Malcolm Roberts] 400 million over what period?

[Ms Laduzko] Sorry, Senator Roberts, we have a ten year funding programme currently agreed across all States and Territories in the Commonwealth and the budgeted allocation for that current ten year programme, about which we’re nearly halfway through is 414 million.

[Malcolm Roberts] So about 41 million a year.

[Ms Laduzko] Yeah, roughly speaking.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. How successful is the management and eradication programme?

[Ms Laduzko] We are four years into a sustained effort at eradicating an invasive ant that has got quite a wide spread. I think and I think I might’ve given this evidence last time to the committee which is we have been learning a lot more about the ant. It’s a very large scale eradication so we’ve been making progress but in the meantime, the programme which is actually led by the Queensland government has been trialling different ways of killing the ant through different bait combinations and technology so I’d have to say we’ve seen some positive signs and there are some learnings around eradication but the actual size of the task and whether it’s sufficiently funded are matters for current discussion.

[Malcolm Roberts] So you haven’t got any concrete measures other than that, you’ve just making progress? Not trying to be cheeky, I just would like to have something quantified. How do you assess progress? Because that’s an awful lot of money.

[Ms Laduzko] Yes, assessing progress is an interesting question and partly we go through cycles of eradication and surveillance so we eradicate to a programme and then we go back and do surveillance to see how effective those measures have been. If you want specific information, I’d probably prefer to take it on notice because that would be what I would source from the program-leading Queensland government to make sure I’m accurate.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, thank you.

[Mr Tongue] And Senator, just to describe there is the programme is run by an independent committee chaired by Wendy Crake who is a very distinguished authority in natural resource management matters.

[Malcolm Roberts] Queensland or Australia?

[Mr Tongue] Australia, Australia and as Ms Laduzko said, jointly funded and there is quite a significant amount of detail that we can provide you on notice about the roll out of the programme, how they’re measuring effectiveness, etc. It is just a very big eradication programme, that’s all.

[Malcolm Roberts] That would be useful because I’ve attended a meeting at Gatton, in the heart of the Valley, and the residents there were pretty upset that they don’t trust what the Queensland government is doing so yeah, I’d like to learn more about it, thank you.

[Mr Tongue] Certainly.

[Malcolm Roberts] How effective are similar overseas eradication programmes?

[Ms Laduzko] I think that it’s true to say, Senator, that nowhere has anyone successfully eradicated red imported fire ants. In fact, Australia is the only successful eradication outcomes and they were on smaller incursions that were, we were able to contain to port environments so we have successfully eradicated small outbreaks but it’s not my understanding that any other country has ever managed to eradicate.

[Malcolm Roberts] So is that ominous for the Valley?

[Ms Laduzko] Well, I think it gives us pause for thought around the size of the eradication and the funding commitment and what our long term strategy is but we do have it, you know, it’s, I think, there’s some stats that suggest if we’d done nothing from when we first saw it, it would already have largely covered the entirety of Australia by now and we have managed to keep it to a defined region.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay so in that sense, it’s effective.

[Ms Laduzko] In that sense, it’s effective.

[Malcolm Roberts] Or it may have delayed the overrun of Australia? We don’t really know yet.

[Ms Laduzko] That’s probably a fair call.

[Mr Tongue] Red imported fire ant is viable in 99 per cent of the Australian continent, Senator.

[Malcolm Roberts] So what’s actually being done on this in Australia? Are you just containing it or you’re trying to eradicate it? Sounds like you’re trying to eradicate it.

[Mr Tongue] It is an eradication programme. It has been going under various guises for a number of years now. In fact, this is a ten year programme. Prior to that, I think we’ve done a seven year programme ahead of that so it’s an eradication programme.

[Malcolm Roberts] How far are we into the ten years? Excuse me for interrupting.

[Mr Tongue] We would be between year four and year five.

[Malcolm Roberts] So we’re halfway through.

[Ms Laduzko] A little less than halfway.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yeah, okay. So what’s being done in terms of the actual on the ground, what’s happening? I know the Queensland government is…

[Mr Tongue] Sorry, it’s quite a complex programme and it’s very large. The nuts and bolts part of it is we’ve agreed a programme for how we approach the eradication efforts so we have zoned certain areas and they’ve embedded a sentiment of moving from west to east with rolling eradication efforts and suppressing in those other areas. I haven’t got to so hard eradication, suppression, suppression, rolling forward but we also have to put a lot of investment in the edge to make sure it doesn’t further escape. The west to east model goes from rural land through to urban environments and that changes the nature of how you do eradication and how you engage the community.

[Malcolm Roberts] And it makes it difficult.

[Ms Laduzko] It does make it a bit more difficult, yes.

[Malcolm Roberts] So it’s hard to tell where are we. At the moment, we seem to be stabilising in your opinion?

[Ms Laduzko] I think at the moment we have certainly, you’d have to say we haven’t allowed it to become worse and we’ve managed, I think, some success in the semi-rural areas. The question will be, as we get closer to those urban environments.

[Malcolm Roberts] What else needs to be done? What more needs to be done?

[Ms Laduzko] I think that’s an open question. You know, the scale of the response is enormous and it often comes down to funding and commitment of participants. Once you’re in an urban environment, everyone needs to be willing and engaged.

[Malcolm Roberts] So are there enough resources to achieve eradication?

[Ms Laduzko] Not something I’d like to comment on right now, Senator, we’re going through a bit of a review. Part of the resourcing question goes to what other strategies we can adopt. Is the technology moving ahead of us? Is the baits, are the baits becoming more effective? A few things like that so I think that’s probably a question perhaps you might like to pose in maybe next session when we’ve done a bit of our own efficiency review.

[Mr Tongue] And I should add, Senator, that it is a science-driven programme so we’re drawing on the best possible science we can. We’re trying to do something, as you’ve alluded to, that hasn’t been done anywhere else in the world. It is success to contain it at some level, it is success to contain it because it is a uniquely adapted little ant that really can move quite swiftly if left uncontained. The challenges around the urban areas, you know, baits, poisons, schools, backyards, you know, those sorts of things are quite difficult. We are also finding, I think in the programme, that the cycle of wet and dry, particularly in that kind of area of Southeast Queensland, can frustrate efforts, you know, lay baits, it rains, all of that work is lost. You go back again. So finding the kind of rhythm, the drum beat that will beat it is something that’s just under constant review. It is an enormous eradication programme and as Ms Laduzko says we’re re-looking at it at the moment and governments will need to make decisions.

[Mr Metcalfe] Not with a view for stopping it.

[Mr Tongue] Not with a view for stopping it.

[Mr Metcalfe] But with a view of how we do it, can we do it better?

[Mr Tongue] Can we do it better? If we up the cash burn rate, would we go faster? If we slowed the cash burn rate, will we do better? Some of those questions, you know. What is the right modality to get rid of it?

[Malcolm Roberts] Before I ask you my next question, it probably is associated with the next question, but just make the comment, not having a go at you but when people use the word ‘science’ around here, I usually start digging because it’s just usually opinion and no science. And in Queensland, farming is being devastated by the Queensland Labour government, citing science but being nowhere near science and they’re destroying whole communities, whole regions and farms so I just make that point. I’d like to see the science rather than believe it.

[Mr Tongue] Sure.

[Malcolm Roberts] So moving on that, on what basis are federal monies provided to the States to assist in these programmes? Because listening to a forum at Gatton, people seem be questioning the Queensland State government’s motives. Is there a different formula, for example, for stabilising and containing versus eradicating?

[Mr Tongue] There is a couple of ways to answer that. In the environment we work in when we do eradication responses, like for things that aren’t yet established, we have agreed deeds where States and Territories and the Commonwealth and industry, where relevant, have an approach they use for eradication and how they cost share that. The Reefer eradication programme we’re talking about started in advance of us having an appropriate deed structure to use so it’s run a little bit differently to other eradication responses but in essence, for us, we have a partnership agreement with the Queensland government that sets out milestones that need to be met in order for us to provide funding to a schedule.

[Malcolm Roberts] So there are conditions attached?

[Ms Laduzko] Yes, yep but consistent with many of these what are largely termed environmental eradication responses, the Commonwealth is contributing 50 per cent of the cost.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, thank you. So is this in any way an enduring money spinner for the States?

[Ms Laduzko] A money spinner? No, I wouldn’t characterise it that way.

[Malcolm Roberts] Could they manipulate it by taking various strategies, for example containment versus eradication, just to prolong it? That was a concern of constituents in Gatton area.

[Ms Laduzko] Yes, you can see how that comes ’cause it gets to a point where in all eradications, this applies in small ones, large ones, you have to make a concluded position about whether you think eradication remains feasible and cost-effective. At the moment, we are signed up to an eradication programme.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay.

[Mr Tongue] And because of the structure of it, I would argue, Senator, how would I put this? All the jurisdictions involved, other than Queensland, have a huge interest in ensuring that the programme is running well because they’re all on the hook to fund it and so it would be very difficult for Queensland to manipulate a circumstance with the gaze of all the other jurisdictions upon it as well as the community where, if you like, they were turning this into some sort of money spinner.

[Malcolm Roberts] So what’s different about Queensland?

[Mr Metcalfe] That’s a very open question, Senator.

[Malcolm Roberts] Apart from the fact that we win State of Origin very often.

[Mr Metcalfe] Well, that’s right, yeah. You’re talking to a Queenslander here, of course.

[Mr Tongue] So this eradication is just, is different because of scale and it’s different because it’s outside what we know as the deed structure. So what we have is risk sharing arrangements between the Commonwealth, the States and Territories and industry, in the agricultural industries, they’re known as the plant deed and the animal deed, and they set up arrangements where we share risk and depending on the nature of the effort that needs to go into deal with a response to some pest or disease or weed, the scale of Commonwealth investment changes and those arrangements are managed by Plant Health Australia and Animal Health Australia and they’re bodies that, if you like, sit outside government and outside industry but they work across to manage those deeds. In this instance, we don’t have that arrangement so we’ve set up this independent style committee.

[Ms Laduzko] Just a slight qualification, we do but that arrangement came into place after we started.

[Mr Tongue] After we started this. This one’s slightly unusual and also scale, it’s vastly different.

[Ms Laduzko] And sorry, Senator, can I just correct something? I said 414 million, it’s 411.4. I think I was just truncating numbers.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you, I appreciate the accuracy. And you’re going to send us some details on how you’re assessing progress? In a quantified way.

[Ms Laduzko] Yes, if you’d like to put them through on notice and we’ll answer to that.

[Malcolm Roberts] Quantified.

[Mr Tongue] Yep.

[Ms Laduzko] Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

[Chair] Oh, right on time, Senator Roberts.

/by

Senate Estimates – Is the Government looking at the Iron Boomerang?

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One Nation has their eye on important infrastructure projects across the country.

Projects like the Iron Boomerang, connecting the West Australian iron ore fields with the Queensland coalfields so we can make steel in the country, could set our country up for decades.

Transcript

[Woman] Senator Roberts.

[Man] Thank you, Chair, thank you Roberts.

[Malcolm Roberts] My questions are designed to see where the department is up to, if at all, on some major infrastructure projects that have been brought to my attention on recent listening and fact finding tours to Northern Australia. First one is the Iron Boomerang to connect the Pilbara iron ore with Bowen Basin coal to create a new Australian steel capability with more than $50 billion a year.

Thanks Senator. Shona Rosengren, Assistant Secretary in Queensland, Northern Territory and WA. So obviously we’re, we’re aware of the discussions around Project Boomerang. What, there is no current Australian government commitment to the project. However, we have already got commitments of $330 million on the Outback Way. Over $700 million in NAP and beef projects in Northern Australia.

[Malcolm Roberts] Excuse me, the Outback Way being the highway.

Being a highway, yeah.

[Malcolm Roberts] not the railway.

And also $8.4 billion in roads of strategic importance projects across Northern Australia as well.

[Malcolm Roberts] But nothing on the railway line.

[Rosengren] But noting on the railway line.

[Malcolm Roberts] Is it seen, the Iron Boomerang, is it seen as really a very, very important security issue for us because it’ll give us independence and sovereignty over our steel industry and steel imports? And also make Australia a significant global player in steel?

I understand the dynamics of the project, but it’s not one that currently has Australian government commitment to it.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. Thank you. Secondly, is the department working on any proposal to extend inland rail north to Gladstone or Townsville?

Not at this stage no, Senator. I think we’ve looked at business cases on that front I think twice in the last–

[Malcolm Roberts] Sorry, what was that?

There’ve been business cases considering a Northern connection to Gladstone, I think twice in the last five years or so. But I’ll confirm with my colleagues through the afternoon.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. Thank you. Thirdly, is the department working on any project to connect the Adelaide to Darwin rail line with the Northern Rail System via Longreach or Mount Isa? Again, another national security issue. Enabling competition between ports, and also security if one of the ports goes out, or if the rail line goes out. Because the current rail line is… No?

[Man] No sir.

[Rosengren] I’m not aware of anything.

[Malcolm Roberts] It would mean easily moving troops from Townsville to Darwin. Okay, the fourth question. The Tully Millstream hydro project, power project, to provide 600 megawatts of clean baseload power into the national grid. Anything on that?

Not under the, I’m only responsible for road and rail projects. I’m not aware of the, the water grid.

Is anyone in Infrastructure Australia available to comment on that?

[Rosengren] It would be under the water .

Yeah, Infrastructure Australia is on tomorrow morning. That might be a Water question, or potentially an Industry question.

[Malcolm Roberts] So you probably won’t know this one either. Is the department working on any hydro projects in what is loosely called the Bradfield Catchment from Charters Towers to Cairns?

[Rosengren] I’m not aware in my responsibilities.

Yeah, I think potentially a question for the Water Grid Authority on Friday?

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, sixth. A space launch facility currently proposed for Abbot Point in North Queensland?

[Rosengren] Again, beyond my responsibility centres.

[Malcolm Roberts] So your departments are, your agency’s responsible for expenditure on projects more than $1 billion?

No, road and rail.

[Malcolm Roberts] Just road and rail.

So land transport.

[Man] Mostly deal with land transport.

[Malcolm Roberts] Mostly, what else?

Well, it’s land transport. We’ve got regional projects. We’ve got city deals.

[Malcolm Roberts] Regional projects, that’s brings up the seventh one which is the copper string to high voltage power transmission line, to bring Mount Isa into the national electricity grid.

I think the electricity projects are probably a matter for Department of Industry. So, DISER.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, thanks Chair.

/by

Senate Estimates – Why is the Government still using Gender Neutral Language?

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My motion last month calling on the government to ditch Gender neutral language passed the Senate. Despite this, the government style guide still includes these gender neutral terms. The Digital Transformation Agency creates the style guide, I asked them why they were defying the will of the Senate.

Original Motion: https://web.archive.org/web/20210331123928/https://7news.com.au/news/social/one-nation-pushes-motion-through-senate-banning-use-of-distorted-gender-inclusive-language-c-2379125

Transcript

[Malcolm Roberts] I’d like to ask questions about the style Manual, which is produced under the auspices of, the digital transformation agency. It’s something very dear to the chair’s heart. I don’t know, she’s stated this in public, language is crucial as a very powerful driver of behaviour and it’s been shown to be influential, for many hundreds of years now. So our office recently investigated the origin of the style manual and we got this advice. These quote, “The Australian government style manual was produced under authority from the Australian government. It is a government publication, but there does not appear to be, any specific regulatory or legislative framework under which it was produced,” Is that correct?

I would need to take that on notice, Senator I’m sorry.

[Malcolm Roberts] So, my understanding is, there’s no specific regulatory or legislative framework. So I noticed that this seventh edition, was compiled by working group with 167 different agencies. There you go Senator Gallagher, you’re always helpful, 167 different agencies, some of whom are organisations, some of whom are individuals, some are voluntary, some are paid part time. How much did edition seven of the Star Manual cost? And what is the annual budget of the style manual unit?

So I will need to look behind me to see, if we have anybody with the numbers, for the the cost of producing the style manual.

So just, we’ll get the numbers for you as soon as we can Senator, but the the actual style manual team is very small. It is purely on a sustainment footing right now, which means the sustainment is just minimum support. So we have a digital edition, which we have produced, which you would be well aware of. Some are very keen still to get paper copies, as you would expect and lots of very enthusiastic participants, but the the investment in the style manual has largely ceased.

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, someone has got to keep going with this, because there’s a document on the website, that says help us improve the style manual. So someone collects this feedback and then actions it, So there is an ongoing cost. So have you worked at how much it is going to cost to go through all the federal government business and implement the changes called in this style manual?

Yes Senator we have released the latest edition and beyond that, the feedback that we take, will potentially make incremental improvements. The benefit we have though, with the style manual being digital is that, it is much simpler for us to make minor refinements than it is where you have a physical document. So it is, as I said, a very small team, it’s one or two people, and they respond to feedback and ensure that the product is maintained with very small sets of changes.

[Malcolm Roberts] So if it’s not a referable document that can be referenced, how do you maintain the integrity of the document? How do we make sure that no one can just walk in and change it when they so want to?

And so we put controls around changes to the document. If it’s helpful, we’ll provide on notice a summary of the team, the level of change, and then how we’re ensuring that the actual product is change controlled in the way that you would expect it to be.

[Malcolm Roberts] So correct me if I’m wrong, the document only exists on a web page at the moment, there’s no printed copy authorised?

So other than the copies that we have produced for editing and so on, there are no hard copies.

[Malcolm Roberts] But there’s not a copy that the minister authorises or anyone has authorised or anybody has authorised?

Sir we had, as you demonstrated many stakeholders who were participating in the refinement of the style manual in the latest edition, I’ll come back to you with the details as to how that process was undertaken to the point at which this is the specific person who authorised the final copy and the how do we manage it.

[Malcolm Roberts] And who is the guardian of changes in future. And what about, has anyone in the government done the costing of what it would cost to change thousands of web pages to make sure that language is complied with, thousands of forms? Has anyone done the costing of that? The implementation cost of this?

I wouldn’t have thought so, Senator.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. At the end of the development process did the minister approve the final format?

Also I’ll come back to you on notice on that.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. I note that the style manual prevents the use of the word junior to describe an adolescent. Have you told all the foot junior footy clubs around Australia that they have to change their name to adolescents?

I don’t believe we have said adolescent footy clubs.

[Malcolm Roberts] So I’m even told that the word youth, let me better get this right. The word youth is okay. The word young people is okay, but the word junior or juniors or youths is not okay. So I noticed the style manual also requires federal government employees to find out the user’s preferred pronoun. Now you didn’t follow your own manual, because nobody asked me what my preferred pronoun was. So, is it more than a recommendation or is that all it is?

Senator it’s a reference for good writing. And in order for us to provide that advice, there is a level of discretion that can still be applied at the individual author level. This is good practice guidance that has been updated to be more contemporary than the last edition.

[Malcolm Roberts] Based upon what a lot of people have inputted but no reference to the English language or dictionaries or custom and practice of what our language means. Just a lot of opinions going in. You don’t look familiar with the process, okay. My Senate motion number 1055 sought to remove use of gender neutral language from federal government business. I asked the office of digital transformation to update the style manual accordingly and they advised it wasn’t necessary as the specific language expressions in my motion were not contained in the style manual, is that still your position?

I will come back to you Senator.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, now your web pages are not numbered for reference in the section on language, your web page advises use gender language, to use gender neutral language. Now federal programmes are being changed to gender neutral language and your style manual has given us the reason, but apparently the department refuses to remove or qualify this gender neutral requirement, is that correct?

Senator, I’m going to need to come back to you with.

[Malcolm Roberts] So I’ve got a few final terms chair, that I’d just like to check, which is recommended by the office of digital transformation for these common terms, breastfeeding or chest feeding.

Senator, I have not.

[Malcolm Roberts] Breast milk or chest milk? Father or non birthing parent? Mother or gestational parent? My motion has the effect of about preventing this language, and now your proposing use of this language. Does that mean you defying the will of the Senate? It did pass.

I think it did.

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Senate Estimates – How much GST are we losing at the border on imports?

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Millions upon millions of parcels flow into Australia every month. Some dodgy operators avoid paying GST on imports by understating the value of the goods being posted. This is a huge disadvantage to our Aussie shops and we need to be doing more to enforce the rules on GST for foreign imports.

Transcript

[Malcolm Roberts] I have some brief questions on border force. How many parcels come through Australian border force each financial year?

So Senator just give me one second. I’ll just get, I might just ask deputy commissioner Saunders to join me at the, the front table as well. In terms of parcels, probably I might describe it slightly differently if I could. So air cargo consignments, if I could start there cause Senator the goods coming into Australia, primarily from a border screening point of view is either sea cargo, stuff that comes in containers, air cargo, stuff that comes in crates in the belly of aeroplanes and international mail. So in terms of air cargo consignments between the 1st of July, 2020 and the 31st of March, 2021 there were 54,340,909 consignments in relation to sea cargo, there’s been a significant uptake. So I’ll give you the numbers for 19 and 20 first of all. So between the 1st of July, 2019, 31st of March, 2020 there were 2,472,286 consignments. Between the 1st of July, 2020 31st of March, 2021, 7,449,539 consignments. The reason for that is because of COVID-19 because of changes in logistics, supply chains, etc, a lot of people shopping from home, smaller consignments and the the freight forwarders need to get it here somehow. And there just isn’t a number of aeroplanes coming to Australia to support all of that coming through air cargo. So a lot of, a lot of the smaller consignments are now coming in containers and that’s led to a significant increase. In terms of international mail you see that data is actually commercially confidential because obviously Australia posts are in competition with you know, freight forwarders and other sort of international supply chain sort of companies. And, we don’t put those numbers out there Senator in terms of Australian international mail.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. But the total number of consignments for the nine months, July 20 to March 21 was 54 million, including air, mail and sea.

Well not including mail, I can’t give you that number because that’s commercially sensitive because Australian posts are sort of a, you know there’s a single commercial entity and they’re in competition with other people in the market. We don’t put that number out there. So what I’ve given you is in terms, sorry, air cargo consignments 54,340,909

[Malcolm Roberts] That’s just for air.

That’s for air, cargo. And for sea cargo an additional almost seven and a half million, 7.449 million.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. Thank you very much for that. How many of these parcels are checked for value and whether or not GST is applied?

I might just call

[Malcolm Roberts] Sorry commissioner, just on that number, the sea cargo is that, how are you quantifying that number?

Consignment, so a consignment is obviously

[Malcolm Roberts] Do you define that as per container or how

No consignment is if you import a good into Australia, that’s a consignment, so that could be an entire container load that you have or if you’ve got lots of lines of goods in a container, so let’s say a freight forwarding company wants to get a lot of consignments to Australia, previously they might put them in a crate in the belly of an aeroplane, whereas now they’re putting them in containers. So we’re getting containers with lots and lots of consignments in them.

[Malcolm Roberts] I see, thanks for clarifying.

Does that make sense?

So it’s an individual entry for an importer of a good and that can be a private person or a commercial entity.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. Thanks.

Thanks Senator Roberts. I might just ask Vanessa Holben here in terms of the, the GST question. If I could, it goes to matters of customs policy.

Vanessa Holburn group manager, customs group, Australian Border force. So your question is related to GST?

[Malcolm Roberts] Yeah. How many of the parcels that come in, consignments, are checked for value and have GST applied?

So I’ll need to take on notice the number of consignments that are checked. What I can give you though, is the dollar value of the undetected, undecided GST detected?

[Malcolm Roberts] The under?

The undecided GST detected. So that’s, that’s where they haven’t obviously claimed GST. So the dollar value, would you like it in the financial years?

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes, please.

So 2019-20, 25,827,753. I can go previous years if you’d like to as well.

[Malcolm Roberts] No it’s fine.

Year to date, so 31st of March, 2021, 411,719.

[Malcolm Roberts] So that’s the, could you say that again? What is that 25 million?

So we determine it, we determine it as understated, GST detected.

[Malcolm Roberts] Understated, GST detected.

Correct.

[Malcolm Roberts] So what does that mean? Understated? So that means only the only the parcels that have been where the GST has been understated and where it’s detected.

Correct.

[Malcolm Roberts] So what proportion of parcels are waved through without checking to see if GST should be paid.

That’s what I need to check on notice for you.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. Thank you. Is there any estimation of how much GST has not been paid per year? It’s a massive task as, as Mr. Adam just told us.

Again, I’ll need to check that on notice.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. How many notices are sent out to call in GST prior to the parcel being released?

I’ll need to check that on notice Senator.

[Malcolm Roberts] What is the estimated loss to Australia per year for the lost or forgone GST?

I’ll need to take that on notice

And senator, we’ll take that on notice, but also we do obviously with GST, recognise other departments have a stake in the GST question, the ATO and treasury. So we will take it on notice, but we’ll, we’ll also link in with our other departments who have an interest in the GST policy.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. What has been done to assist the cost of this forfeit and to implement a remedy. We’ve got to define the problem before we can solve it. With 54 million consignments, I’m sorry, 61 million consignment, it’s a pretty massive opportunity.

Can you repeat the question again Senator?

[Malcolm Roberts] What’s been done to assess the, the loss of revenue the forgone revenue, and to implement a remedy.

We can talk about our audit inspection control programme.

So, so the compliance, we have a compliance programme obviously to detect non-compliance through those avenues.

[Malcolm Roberts] That’s sampling is it?

Correct, yes so there’s targets and there’s profiling. Also we do business engagements, that’s around educating those that are importing to ensure that they are quickly classifying the goods and obviously paying those duties attached to those goods.

[Malcolm Roberts] So there’d be hidden costs, is the government, I don’t know who to ask this question of, perhaps a minister, perhaps Mr. Adam, is the government aware of the hidden cost to Australian manufacturers and retailers who must add GST to their goods, whereas imports bypassing customs do not?

Probably a matter of policy I suggest, and maybe a different department would be best placed to answer that.

I’ll say, we are aware in the general sense of the matters you raise, but I’d need to take on notice the quantum of that.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yeah, so depends on the size of the problem, I understand that. So is it possible to consider another solution being tax reform? Another way of levying the tax?

Those options are always available to be considered by policymakers.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, Thank you very much.

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Is the Inland Rail a $24 Billion White Elephant? Australian Rail Track Corporation

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The Inland Rail is a huge project. It is riddled with uncertainty and secrecy. The ARTC won’t release the business case for the project, even though we have evidence that many of the assumptions used for it are completely flawed. The Inland Rail started as costing less than $3 Billion, it is now estimated at nearly $24 Billion. While the head of the ARTC is on $1 million+ of taxpayer money a year, all of the detail should be publicly available.

Transcript

[Malcolm Roberts] First question is, can you list Inland Rail Social Media Accounts, and how much we spend on social media including Instagram in the last financial year. Please

[Witness] Sure, we’ll probably have to take it on notice, so we can give you some idea of quickly, but we found social media to be extremely effective and greatly improve, some of our engagements that was asked about earlier, we find that we have interactive dialogues on a real-time basis with people they don’t have to come to us, we don’t have to go to them. We can provide very technical information, including maps. They can post questions on those maps. So the social media interaction has been extremely effective. Do you want to provide any additional detail to back up?

[Witness] No. I mean, I think we’re finding it as a good value for money medium. And, but yes, we have multiple channels, as you would expect. Again, we can confirm those, but all the ones you would expect Facebook and Instagram, LinkedIn, those things are on YouTube, those sorts of things. So, but we can get you the details.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. The business case lists 87 coal trains a week, going into Brisbane every week, all the way through to 2050, I understand that coal reserves that would come down that line run out in 2030. Is that true? And if so, what does that do to your business case?

The first part, we would be speculating on we’d have to take it on notice ’cause we don’t control the coal market.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes Obviously.

The second part, we have testified previously, that even if coal was to go to zero, and I’m going to ask Mr. Campbell and Mr. Hornsby to correct me if I’m wrong, but even if the coal volumes were to go to zero, that the business case still stacks up and still had a benefit to cost ratio over two

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. The Queensland government only allows 10 million tonnes of coal to be sent to Brisbane port, currently the port handles 7 million tonnes, is this limit of 10 still in place? And rather than 87 trains a week, how many will the remaining 3 million tonnes generate? We make it out around about seven trains a week, not 87.

Yeah. Again, we’d have to take that on notice ’cause I’m not sure the limitations at the port of Brisbane.

[Malcolm Roberts] Is it true that the port of Brisbane can only unload trains for 49 hours a week, being 8:30 AM to 5:00 PM, Monday to Friday, ten to two on Saturday and closed all day Sunday? If so, how long does it take to unload a train? The point being, how many trains can the port of Brisbane actually service as against the business case?

So, Senator the business case was primarily a terminal to terminal activity, so from Melbourne to Acacia Ridge. So as far as I’m aware that the business case didn’t really cater or talk to traffic between traffic to and from the port.

[Malcolm Roberts] How then can we assist the viability?

Of

[Malcolm Roberts] Providing the Inland rail if you don’t know the service?

Yeah, so the inland rail is being built as a terminal to terminal, and I think as we heard earlier on there may be more than one terminal in Brisbane, and there is a separate business case analysis looking at that link to the port which is not part of the inland rail project.

[Malcolm Roberts] So if the port of Brisbane is not modelled in that how do we know the impact of the port on the inland rail? The constraint of the port?

I might ask my colleague Simon.

[Simon Orsby] Okay let me introduce myself. Sir I’m Simon Ormsby executive interstate network for ROTC and I’ve joined the bench. It’s okay chair. In broad term, we can come back with the details behind the modelling, when we take that on notice. But in broad terms, the number of trains assumed is broadly similar to the number of trains that are passed through today. But there are longer trains in the business case, inland rail and investments enables longer coal trains, so heavier coal trains to be run than today. So the assumptions aren’t poorly different, in the business case to what happens today, but we can come back to your technical notice and come back to all the data around that.

[Malcolm Roberts] I’m interested in the impact, of the restricted hours at Brisbane port.

Yep, we’ll come back.

[Malcolm Roberts] Is it true that passing loops at Kings Thorpe and Fisherman’s Island can only handle a train, with the length of 670 metres yet your train are 1600 metres, so how do you propose to get your trains in and out of the port?

So Senator it’s not intended at this point, that longer trains than currently operate to the port today will operate to the port in the future. So our 1.8 kilometre trains will terminate at a terminal outside of Brisbane or on the edges of Brisbane or Acacia Ridge. And then there would need to be a different arrangement, than those trains that would take it to the port.

[Malcolm Roberts] Gets quite complex. Isn’t it?

I can’t validate the length of those crossing loops, but what I can say is part of the business case extensive capacity modelling was undertaken, and assume different lengths of trains, because you have a crossing loop or two crossing loops at 600 metres. Doesn’t mean that every train is limited to 600 metres, and there is, there’s quite a bit of double track, so if you’re particularly in running a narrow gauge train, so some of those coal trains may just have a through run without actually utilising the crossing loop.

Can I maybe just help a little bit, what he’s saying is you can give priority to longer trains, so the ones that use the passing loops are the shorter trains. So it doesn’t have to actually match the length of the train that uses the line to be given that priority.

[Malcolm Roberts] Got it.

So that’s one.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. Brisbane trains have a curfew which limits inland rail services to 19 hours a day, which means that the times a train can leave Melbourne needs to adjust to avoid that curfew, there will be a corresponding window in Melbourne, and all along the route, have you modelled how this will affect loads, Once inland rail is fully operational?

So there’s no curfew for trains outside of Acacia Ridge. I’m not, in fact, I’m not aware of a curfew.

[Malcolm Roberts] So you haven’t modelled it?

Sorry,

[Malcolm Roberts] You haven’t modelled it.

No, we’ve assumed there’s no curfew, could say unlimited access between Melbourne, the Melbourne terminals and the Brisbane terminals?

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. The new tunnel ARTC will have to build down from Toowoomba has a grade end of one to 64. The train would need to do 30 kilometres an hour down the tunnel. Once the train exits the tunnel, that limit is 80 kilometres per hour, all the way to the port. Can you demonstrate that this has been factored into the 24 hour transit time?

Yes, and we can give you the train modelling.

[Malcolm Roberts] If we could please, Thank you. The project cost of 14.8 billion does not include anything to do with the tunnel, through the great dividing range outside of Toowoomba. Is that correct?

No.

[Malcolm Roberts] What is the cost?

Of the tunnel?

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes.

So projects as we’ve testified a few times now, for commercial and confidence we’re under procurement right now. So we’re not disclosing project budgets, but the total cost of inland rail, does include the cost of the tunnel down the Toowoomba range.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. Australian Economic Consultants and Peer reviewed by professor Rolf has put the cost of the tunnel at $5 billion plus $3 billion for new rail line between Acacia Ridge, the port of Brisbane, and $1 billion of other work. This puts the current cost of inland rail at 24 billion. How can it possibly recoup these expenses?

Sorry, Senator Roberts, I’d have to expand on those comments. That’s I believe cost of the tunnel to go to the port, and the improvements to get to the port, which is subject to that separate business case, it wouldn’t be additive to the cost of inland rail. It’s a separate project with a separate business case.

[Malcolm Roberts] How can it still stack up? That’s a heck. That’s a matter for government and the business case.

Sir the port connection, isn’t part of the inland rail project

[Malcolm Roberts] Sorry.

The port connection work isn’t part of the inland rail project, and hasn’t been committed to, by any government, then to do the study.

[Malcolm Roberts] It’s additional costs.

Well we were doing a study on what’s viable and what would work with, the Queensland government. And whether or not there is a port connection built will be a matter for future government decision-making.

[Malcolm Roberts] Let’s move on then. In the original discussions around what was then called the north south rail corridor, there was a route that came over the border into Queensland. where it does now near Goondiwindi and then heads north to Mooney before crossing the mountain range at a lower elevation through Mamadoer onto Dalby, and then down to Toowoomba. This allows for a junction at Dalby with coal and bulk grains, going to Gladstone and the freight hub for Brisbane located at Toowoomba. The rest of the trip would be by road using the new $1.6 billion second range crossing which is actually built. Do you have any information on that alignment via Mooney?

Yes. That was looked at some time ago and found not to be economically feasible as an alternative to meet the business case requirements. So maybe I can address the broader question there, which is Gladstone truncating in Toowoomba. The biggest thing about inland rail we have to remember, is the actual business case and the business case was developed over a long period of time between the Commonwealth, the states and ARTC and they all agreed that the way to meet the business case, which was a terminal to terminal to meet the growth demands in Southeast Queensland and Victoria for domestic goods was the broadly the alignment we’re on today. It was not meant to get to port okay. If it was a different business case, it was about getting to the most efficient port, or it was about coal then maybe Gladstone would make a lot more sense. The terminal to terminal is very important, particularly when we look at some of the growth rates in Queensland, if you look at what’s been released in the last month or so out of Southeast Queensland two and a half million people growing to 5 million people, they’re gonna have a lot of needs, and a lot of products and goods and services. And so that is what the supply chain is all about. That’s what inland rail is all about, is getting them the furniture, the food that they need, the beer that they need, the toilet paper that they need. So, sorry,

I said here, here.

Thank you. So trying to divert now and go to Gladstone, it can be an end, but you doesn’t make sense. We have to be true to the business case and deliver on that business case. And that’s what we’re doing.

[Malcolm Roberts] A lot of complexities. In a major project we learn as we start the project, and as we implement the project, there seem to be more and more questions that are coming up.

Yes. And, but that is, you’re exactly right. That’s a major project, and so what you have to do is respond to the learnings, and improve as you go, and have a process that allows you to account for it

[Malcolm Roberts] Could it be that the original business case was not done in sufficient depth quality?

I think it’s one of the better business cases I’ve seen and certainly had a very good benefit to cost ratio compared to other projects. So it’s pretty high quality.

[Malcolm Roberts] Based on early assumptions.

Yes.

[Malcolm Roberts] What’s the benefits to cost ratio?

2.6 originally

[Malcolm Roberts] The AEC found that a route that terminated in Toowoomba and sent coal and grain to Gladstone, including the cost of the extra leg to Gladstone would cost $12 billion total on a return of 1.58 as against the current route, including tunnels and links, which is now at 24 billion on a return of investment at 1.01, will you refer the AEC Gladstone alignment with Toowoomba termination, to the rural and regional affairs and transport committee inland rail inquiry for a full review?

Yeah. So I have to correct the statement, that inland rail not 24 billion. We talked about that earlier today, two different business cases. And the second thing about being cheaper to go to Gladstone, if it doesn’t accomplish the business case, it doesn’t really matter whether it’s cheaper. You know, I had this discussion with my family all the time when they buy something on sale that they don’t need, it doesn’t do us any good. So,

If it’s more productive.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you very much. Isn’t it that the issue really about value?

It is about value, but you have to accomplish. One of the great things is, and I’ve mentioned this a few times one of the great things about Australia, as opposed to other countries, I’ve dealt with large infrastructure, large infrastructure projects are justified based on the business case. We have to be true and honest to that business case, it’s disingenuous to deliver something different other than that business case, without going back and changing it.

/1 Comment/by

BigTech Clamps Down

I talked to Marcus Paul about axing changes to the responsible lending laws, my anti-gender-neutral language motion and vaccine passports on 2SM.

Transcript

[Marcus Paul] Well, tell me what happened with YouTube?

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, Marcus, we had a very good interview last week, as usual, trading facts and discussing the facts.

[Marcus Paul] You and I?

[Malcolm Roberts] Yeah.

[Marcus Paul] Yeah.

[Malcolm Roberts] And we posted it as we always do on YouTube and Facebook. And YouTube banned my post because I mentioned Ivermectin and included some facts, scientific facts, and also said that the doctor successfully prescribed it for me, and I used it several years ago to treat a condition when I came back from India. So it seems factual comments rub Google the wrong way.

[Marcus Paul] Wow, okay, what about Facebook? Is it still there? Because we often share your stuff and obviously because it’s content for our show, but yeah, I know. Oh, okay. Yeah, no gone. Gone.

[Malcolm Roberts]We posted it also on Facebook. It’s still there. But the Facebook censors came knocking on our door for a post I made back in 1st of May which is almost three weeks ago. also proclaiming the facts on Ivermectin that’s been treated it’s being used to treat 3.7 billion doses around the world. It’s proven, safe, etc. etc. And they’ve wiped that one out. So, I mean, always that’s a form of control and always beneath control is fear. These people: Google, YouTube, Facebook are afraid of facts.

[Marcus Paul] All right. Well, Craig Kelly has gone through something similar, as you would know, and that’s why.. Look you mention Ivermectin and the censors go wild. It’s probably because it’s not a part of official government policy. That’s what I’ve been told. And that’s why I was told to steer clear of it and not discuss it. And that’s why I left it well alone, to be honest. But anyway, Malcolm let’s move on. One nation appears to have torpedoed the government’s plans to ditch responsible lending laws. After the parties leader, Pauline Hanson said it would leave Australians vulnerable to predatory banks. After the government last year announced a roll back of laws that affect how banks assess customers for mortgages and personal loans. Senator Hanson yesterday said the government was telling the public to relax and trust the big banks.

[Malcolm Roberts] We are ditching the government’s proposed relaxation of responsible lending laws because it’s wrong. These banks are cutthroat. They’re robber barons and they do not care about people. They care only about making money for the banks. But the Labour Party and the Liberal Party have a history of supporting the big banks. In 2017 Pauline got an inquiry up in to lending to primary production customers. That’s foresters, farmers, fishermen. And she asked me to chair it and we were very strong on it. We worked closely with the National Party, Senator Williams, Wacka Williams, and we had a bipartisan approach. And we went out in to the Bush, got the farmers, supported them, my office, Pauline’s office in particular supported the farmers to make submissions. We supported them. We went out in the bush again before each hearing. We’d got their stories and we told them how to get it across effectively. Very successful. I then held the banks accountable and it was so embarrassing for the Turnbull government at the time that Turnbull and Morrison both said they would not have a royal commission in to the banks. So successful were we at exposing the rorts the banks were doing that we got a royal commission and it embarrassed the government in to it. Now, the point was that we exposed predatory lending and corruption by the banks. Now the Morrison government wants to unwind what we achieved. And we also chase the banks, the Australian banking association, on its own code of conduct. And so we can’t afford to unwind this. We only had a royal commission come down what, two years ago?

[Marcus Paul] Yeah. Yep.

[Malcolm Roberts] This is ridiculous.

[Marcus Paul] All right. Another issue. Maybe the most important of all COVID issues. Vaccine passports. I noticed that from the start you say you’ve opposed vaccine passports that are really vaccine prisons. Tell me about this.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes. And when we still maintain that position we will oppose a vaccine passport, a digital passport, because they’re excluding people. You cannot force people in this country to inject something in to their bodies. That has to be an informed choice and informed consent. So what it means is that if you don’t have the vaccine or digital record of your vaccine being administered, then you won’t be able to go onto airlines. You won’t be able to travel overseas. You won’t be able to travel interstate. According to some people. You won’t be able to enter a pub, maybe. Who knows where this will end. That’s why I call it the digital prison. It’s a vaccine prison. And it’s a way of forcing people to take the jab. Now, what you’ll notice also is that Ivermectin is a proven, safe, affordable, alternative to a vaccine. We’re not saying one or the other. We’re saying you take your choice. At the moment, we are not giving people an informed consent. They are not giving us informed consent rather to the government. So we’re forcing people, basically, if the digital prison comes in, so you can get a jab. Whereas we have an alternative vac-, alternative treatment in Ivermectin that is proven, safe and affordable. People need to be able to choose what they want to do.

[Marcus Paul] All right, let’s move on to gender language. You’ve attached a motion here. Individuals have a right to choose their descriptors but we cannot dehumanise the human race and undermine genders. It’s stressing out children. We can never deal with men and women’s health issues if we pretend they aren’t men and women say One Nation.

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes. I got this motion up in the Senate a few weeks ago. In fact, the Labour Party and the Greens opposed it. They voted against it. The Liberal Party took a bit of talking, but they eventually came on board and we got it through the Senate. What’s happening right now is that fundamental biology and relationships are represented through the descriptions like mother, father, son, daughter, brother, sister, boy, girl, grandmother, grandfather, uncle, aunt, etc. Mr. Mrs. What the government has done in the past is it’s taken away these descriptors and put gender neutral descriptors in there. And what we want to do is to make sure, and then we called on the government, to make sure that it returns to proper English, because we reject the use of distorted language. Like if you want to talk about a man, then he’s a non-gestational person. Non-gestational parent, father that is. Instead of father, they want to be called non-gestational parent.

[Marcus Paul] What?

[Malcolm Roberts] Mother is gestational parent.

[Marcus Paul] I’ve got a headache.

[Malcolm Roberts] Instead of breastfeeding, it’s chestfeeding. Instead of milk, it’s human milk. Lactating parent. Menstruators instead of women. Now, this is absolutely ridiculous. And we just want to get back to the simple terms that everyone understands. We’ve got to have correct language.

[Marcus Paul] All right. There’s a bit of a fight brewing. And I spoke to Anthony Albanese yesterday about Joel Fitzgibbon. This story kind of broke a little later in relation to the $600 million gas plants which is slated for Curry Curry, up there in the Hunter. Labour say, no. Well certainly Chris Bowen, Anthony Albanese, they all say no that it’s, you know, the cost doesn’t stack up. And they base it with some data from a number of organisations that say the business case just doesn’t work and we’d be wasting our money. The government though wants to power ahead with a gas fired recovery post COVID-19. And that’s why they are using taxpayers money and getting the snowy hydro people to operate this new gas power station. They promise Malcolm that our prices, power prices, will come down. Of course, this is all because Lidell is closing down. Now. Joel Fitzgibbon, Meryl Swanson, seem to be on one side of the argument here in Labour. Whereas the others, including Chris Bowen and Anthony Albanese, oppose it. They’re in a bit of trouble I think, mate.

[Malcolm Roberts] They’re in a hell of a lot of trouble. But they’re not the only ones in trouble. The Liberal Party and the National Party are also in trouble because Angus Taylor, the energy minister, has admitted in public that he is afraid of, they’re his words, he’s afraid of higher prices in the future for electricity. Less reliability. The end of reliability and the end of stability for our grid. When I was a kid, I had first-year high school at Curry Curry. I cycled in from the bush, about four mile, we lived in the bush, four miles out. I cycled into town, picked up a town of Western and then Curry, and we’d picked up mates and we cycled to Curry Curry High School. We went past the Curry Curry Alcan Aluminium Smelter. That was built there because of the cheap coal-fired electricity in the Hunter. Because aluminium smelters need a hell of a lot of cheap of electricity and reliable supply. That plant is now shut. They’ve demolished that plant. That’s where they want to build a gas-fired power station. Now, I understand from the Australian newspaper that Tomago has had three shutdowns in the last week. You cannot shut down an aluminium smelter like that.

[Marcus Paul] Yeah.

[Malcolm Roberts] They’re also forced with high prices.

[Marcus Paul] Sure.

[Malcolm Roberts] We are destroying our industry in this country and shipping it overseas. We have got to wake up. The cheapest form of power is hydro. That’s without a doubt. The second cheapest is coal. Hydro is limited. Coal is abundant in this country. We are the world’s largest exporters of gas and coal in the world. And sea-borne trade of coal in the world. Now, we’ve also got the fact that the third cheapest, way behind coal, is nuclear. Solar and wind which is what both Liberal Party and Labour Party and Joel’s mob, are going for. Solar and wind and batteries. They’re absolutely ridiculous prices. For every, they’ve proven this overseas, for every so-called green energy job, solar and wind, there are 2.2 real industry jobs lost. It is highly destructive what they’re doing. Both parties.

[Marcus Paul] All right, Malcolm. Good to have you on, mate. We’ll talk again soon.

[Malcolm Roberts] All right, mate.

[Marcus Paul] All right.

[Malcolm Roberts] Bye, Marcus.

[Marcus Paul] There he is. One Nation Senator Malcolm Roberts.

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