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Restoring the NDIS to Its Core Purpose

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During Estimates in June I questioned the government on its proposed $38 billion cuts to the NDIS.

Officials admitted the savings come from tightening eligibility, slashing participant budgets, and reducing key supports like community participation by 50% and capacity-building activities by 10%. They also confirmed a new “objective test” that will narrow who can access the scheme in the first place.

Minister McAllister clarified that disrupting fraud does not translate into government savings because recovered funds are returned to participants’ plans to secure legitimate services. She noted that while tackling fraud is a key priority, reducing total expenditure requires separate structural measures.

Department officials outlined the specific areas targeting budget reductions:

✅ Cutting social, community, and civic participation budgets by 50%, and capacity-building daily activity budgets by 10% ($13.2 billion).

✅ Replacing general disability-type lists with an objective test for “substantially reduced functional capacity” to restrict who enters the scheme ($9.3 billion).

✅ Restricting unscheduled reassessment requests and stopping plan roll-overs ($3.1 billion).

✅ Applying stricter guidelines on the level of support granted to existing participants ($2.9 billion).

✅ Commissioning changes to plan management and support coordination ($1.4 billion).

✅ Requiring registration for providers of high-risk supports such as intimate personal care or respite settings ($200 million).

The government’s target of slowing NDIS growth to roughly 5% annually relies on tightening eligibility thresholds, restricting core participant budgets, and narrowing the scope of “reasonable and necessary” supports.

Although it’s good to hear that steps are being taken to keep the NDIS sustainable, it’s vital that the priority remains stopping fraud, not cutting legitimate services.

Transcript

ACTING CHAIR: Welcome back, everybody. We are on outcome 4, and we will start our questioning with Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing again today. What is the amount forecast to be saved by the proposed cuts to the NDIS program?  

Mr Comley: The number in the budget is $37.8 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is that for four years?  

Mr Comley: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: Shouldn’t the priority be to stop wasting money and stop the criminals defrauding the service?  

Senator McAllister: We had quite a long conversation about this earlier in the day. To put it briefly, our priority is to stop the criminals defrauding the NDIS. The budget contains very significant investments in the capability of the agency to disrupt fraud, including continuing funding for the Fraud Fusion Taskforce that we’ve spoken about before. The point I was making earlier is that we see some savings to government when we disrupt fraud, but, historically, we’ve seen the vast majority of the money that we identify as going to bad actors returned to people with disability. So, yes, our priority, absolutely, is intervening to stop fraud—non-compliant claiming and other integrity leakage—but whether that is a source of savings to government is a different question.  

Senator ROBERTS: What is the answer to that one?  

Senator McAllister: The answer is that historically, when we have disrupted providers who are defrauding the NDIS, they are taking money from disabled people. We disrupt it. The money goes back to that person who acquires the services that they need from a legitimate provider. So it’s not a source of savings to government, but it does improve the functioning of the scheme. I’ve said it on many occasions: this scheme has to operate with integrity. Over the period that we have been in government, we have made very substantial investments to lift the capacity of the NDIA and the NDIS Quality and Safeguards Commission to make sure that that is so. There is still more to do, and it’s why there is significant investment—further investment in the budget—that we’ve just brought through.  

Senator ROBERTS: So rather than cutting services, you’re cutting fraud?  

Senator McAllister: The reform package as a whole seeks to make sure that the scheme is sustainable. Minister Butler has talked about stopping runaway cost growth. He has talked about tackling fraud. He’s talking about reshaping markets so that they deliver good value services and quality services to people with disability. The whole package is about making the NDIS stronger and better so it is here for the long term. It’s not a choice between dealing with runaway cost growth or tackling fraud. We actually have to do both.  

Senator ROBERTS: Who are the people whose services will be cut then, if it’s not just fraud?  

Senator McAllister: I’ll ask officials to talk you through some of our expectations in terms of the approach that we are taking.  

Mr Comley: Perhaps the easiest place to draw from is the public disclosure of information and the lines there where it runs through the composition of the reductions across the forward estimates. I also note in reply to your earlier comment, Senator, that that production of documents includes—as does the budget—the savings measure on both a fiscal balance and underlying cash balance basis. I gave you the underlying cash balance. The equivalent number on fiscal balance is $38.1 billion, so they’re both around $38 billion. There are 10 aspects outlined in that production of documents.  

Ms Long: That’s correct.  

Mr Comley: I’ll hand over to Ms Long.  

Ms Long: The reforms cover a range of areas. That includes addressing fraud, compliance and integrity, but it also includes measures around eligibility and participants’ budgets. Would you like me to go across—  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, please.  

Ms Long: As Secretary Comley said, the total impact of the reforms is $38.1 billion over the forward estimates. That can be broken down into a number of components. The first component is around strengthening guidance on what is reasonable and necessary, and that has an impact of $2.9 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is that tightening up on who should get it? I’m using that word ‘tightening’ constructively.  

Ms Long: It’s around what is considered reasonable and necessary and how that is applied in terms of the determination of budgets.  

Mr Comley: To be clear, that measure is for people that are in the scheme, once they’re in the scheme, on what is considered the right level of support. There are other measures Ms Long will come to that go to the question of who should be in the scheme in the first place.  

Ms Long: There’s another element around resetting social, community and civic participation and capacity building budgets, which has an impact of $13.2 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: What do you mean by that?  

Ms Long: There are two particular budget categories. The first one is the social, community and civic participation budget. That’s a type of support that is provided. Another type of support is capacity-building daily activities. Those two types of supports, through a ministerial determination, will have budgets reduced. The social and community budgets will be reduced by 50 per cent. The capacity-building daily activity budgets will be reduced by 10 per cent.  

Senator ROBERTS: What do you mean by community activity? What is the scope of that?  

Ms Long: It’s quite a broad support category. It provides supports to participants to go out and engage in the community. It might involve having a support worker take them out to engage in some form of community activity, for example.  

Mr Comley: It could be as simple as going to a park, maybe having a walk around or feeding the ducks, or it could be a sporting event. It could be a whole range of things. That’s community participation.  

Ms Long: Another element of the reforms is around commissioning plan management and support coordination, which would deliver an improvement of around $1.4 billion over the forward estimates. Also, there has been quite a lot of plan inflation that has been observed, so there are a series of reforms that are aimed at addressing that plan inflation. That includes tightening the criteria around unscheduled reassessment requests and ending plans rolling over and funds being rolled over alongside. The total impact of those reforms is $3.1 billion over the forward estimates. There are also a range of access changes, as Secretary Comley referred to. In particular, in introducing an objective test of substantially reduced functional capacity, that would look to tighten eligibility for the scheme in order to focus that back on significant and permanent disability but also to have a focus on substantially reduced functional capacity rather than disability type. That change would have an impact of $9.3 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: So it’s going to tighten and be more specific?  

Ms Long: That’s correct. There will need to be a range of consultation and engagement on how that’s applied in terms of the threshold, the definition and how that’s done in practice, but, yes, the intent is to focus in eligibility on significantly reduced functional capacity. To date, access to the scheme has commonly been done through access lists that relate to your disability type. This would mean that we would no longer need to use those access lists and instead eligibility would be focused on a substantial reduction in functional capacity. If you’d like, I could keep going through a number of the other elements of the reform package, if that’s helpful.  

Senator ROBERTS: How many more are there?  

Ms Long: There are probably a couple more that I could mention if you like. Another one that might be worth highlighting is there’s a measure for mandatory registration for high-risk providers, which is around, obviously, having registration. That would deliver savings of $0.2 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: High-risk providers?  

Ms Long: That’s correct.  

Senator ROBERTS: How do you identify high risk?  

Ms Long: I might need one of my colleagues to talk to the detail of how that will be applied.  

Ms Alisa Chambers: High-risk supports as imagined through the budget is an extension of mandatory registration that we’re moving through at the moment with supported independent living and platform providers, in the new category of advanced registration. Those high-risk supports relate to daily activities—things like catheter care or really intimate personal care—and closed settings, like respite settings, where we see really significant risk to people with disability, particularly people with significant support needs.  

Ms Long: Overall, as a result of the reforms, it’s projected that average growth in the NDIS will be 1.7 per cent over the forward estimates and five per cent over the medium term. Five per cent per annum growth for the NDIS is broadly in line with Medicare and aged-care growth rates. It also means that the scheme will remain steady at around 1.6 per cent of GDP over the medium term on the current projections that we have.  

Senator ROBERTS: I had a question about how those people whose services will be cut will be identified. It’s basically through tightening up the eligibility criteria, which is something that we’ve been talking about for a while. That’s good to see, Minister.  

ACTING CHAIR: You’ve got about another two minutes, Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’ve got questions for quality and safeguards. We’ve identified several fraudsters who need to be investigated and moneys chased down. Is this where most effort should be used to seek restitution?  

Mr Comley: I think the Quality and Safeguards Commission is dealing more with participant safety. The NDIA and Mr Dardo’s area are more in the area of fraud and misuse of funds. Mr Dardo might want to comment.  

Mr Dardo: Overwhelmingly, our focus is on preventing the money going out in the first place so we can prevent the money leaving the system when it shouldn’t be. The beauty of that is you’re not trying to chase a debt. You’re not trying to chase the money after it’s gone. That’s our overwhelming focus, and we’ve done a really, really good job in identifying problematic providers and stopping the funds leaving before they should. When the money has gone, there are different ways that we might recover it. Raising a debt might be one way. Asking the courts for reparation, like an order to repay, might be another. Another way that we’ve done it is we’ve worked with state or federal policing authorities to seize assets or freeze assets. In one recent case, we froze $5 million in assets and had them confiscated by the Commonwealth. In another case, we’ve frozen $40 million in assets. In a recent case, we’ve frozen another $4½ million to $5 million. It’s really important that we send the message that, even if the money has gone and somebody thinks they’ve gotten away with it, we will actually pursue the assets. There is another avenue that we’ve been using, which is to get the tax office to go after them from a tax perspective and raise taxes and attack the problem from that direction. Overwhelmingly, designing a system to stop the money going out in the first place is our mission, but we do have avenues to try to recover money when it gets to the serious end of fraud.  

Ms Wade: Secretary Comley mentioned that the commission’s focus with respect to fraud is firmly on the behaviour of providers in the market. In addressing that, in addition to penalty frameworks for providers, we have the registration scheme, and we’ve strengthened our approach to the registration scheme to ensure that it detects fraud in more sophisticated ways through recent reforms. As those registration groups grow, which we just spoke about, that strengthened response for fraud detection continues to be enhanced as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: It’s multipronged.  

Ms Wade: Yes, absolutely.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll ask my last question for this bracket. I’ve still got more when we come back. How many cases of fraud are being reported? You said that, if you took them all to court, they’d be clogged.  

Mr Dardo: The way we look at it is that it’s about stopping the integrity leakage whether it’s accidental, it’s sharp, it’s malicious or it’s organised crime. We’ve got to stop it all because any one of those vulnerabilities that are open allows money to leak out of the scheme. We get a significant number of tip-offs every year. We get 29,000 tip-offs every year. They are not all fraud. We’ve got to be really careful in assuming. They’re not all fraud. As you go up the spectrum, there are several thousand ABNs that we’ve already got some controls on through manual payment reviews, and we have been building more systems in the last few weeks that are now turning on. We will put a couple thousand more ABNs into those reviews in the next few weeks. Then you go up the spectrum a bit more, where we’ve got Fraud Fusion Taskforce investigations. There are about 660 investigations, but 400 of those related to the NDIS are either with the commission or with us—or both. Then you get to the ones that are in the prosecution phase. There are a few dozen in the prosecution phase, so they’re in front of the courts or we’ve got briefs of evidence with the CDPP to prepare them for the courts. That’s the spectrum. And it’s really important to note that there is no regulatory system in the world that thinks that every single non-compliant thing is going to end up as a prosecution. That is not the way the world works.  

Senator ROBERTS: How many convictions have there been?  

Mr Dardo: There have been 25 convictions since the Fraud Fusion Taskforce started, and those sentences have resulted, in some cases, in custodial sentences up to six years. There are more cases where there has been a guilty outcome—either pled guilty or found guilty—but they’re awaiting sentencing. We don’t control the dates of the court, so some of those have been sitting there awaiting sentencing for six months or a year. There are cases that are currently scheduled for sentencing in July. They may happen in July; they may happen in December—we don’t know. But there are more cases sitting there right now where they’ve been found guilty awaiting sentencing. 

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Protecting Every NDIS Dollar

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During this session with NDIS officials, I questioned them on their progress in tackling fraud within the scheme.

Here’s an overview of how non-compliance and fraud are being tackled:

👉 29,000 tip-offs received annually, though not all represent actual fraud, with issues ranging from accidental errors to organised crime.

👉 Thousands of Australian Business Numbers are currently placed under manual payment controls and enhanced automated screening.

👉 400 active NDIS investigations are currently being handled by the NDIS Commission and taskforce partners out of 660 total taskforce cases.

👉 25 convictions have been recorded with sentences including up to 6 years in prison. Dozens of more cases are currently in the prosecution phase or awaiting final court sentencing.

Mr Dardo stressed that regulatory oversight relies on a full spectrum of interventions from automated payment blocks to criminal prosecutions to plug integrity leaks effectively.

Every step must be taken to ensure the NDIS remains financially sustainable and accessible for Australians that genuinely depend on it.

Transcript

ACTING CHAIR: Welcome back, everybody. We are on outcome 4, and we will start our questioning with Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing again today. What is the amount forecast to be saved by the proposed cuts to the NDIS program?  

Mr Comley: The number in the budget is $37.8 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is that for four years?  

Mr Comley: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: Shouldn’t the priority be to stop wasting money and stop the criminals defrauding the service?  

Senator McAllister: We had quite a long conversation about this earlier in the day. To put it briefly, our priority is to stop the criminals defrauding the NDIS. The budget contains very significant investments in the capability of the agency to disrupt fraud, including continuing funding for the Fraud Fusion Taskforce that we’ve spoken about before. The point I was making earlier is that we see some savings to government when we disrupt fraud, but, historically, we’ve seen the vast majority of the money that we identify as going to bad actors returned to people with disability. So, yes, our priority, absolutely, is intervening to stop fraud—non-compliant claiming and other integrity leakage—but whether that is a source of savings to government is a different question.  

Senator ROBERTS: What is the answer to that one?  

Senator McAllister: The answer is that historically, when we have disrupted providers who are defrauding the NDIS, they are taking money from disabled people. We disrupt it. The money goes back to that person who acquires the services that they need from a legitimate provider. So it’s not a source of savings to government, but it does improve the functioning of the scheme. I’ve said it on many occasions: this scheme has to operate with integrity. Over the period that we have been in government, we have made very substantial investments to lift the capacity of the NDIA and the NDIS Quality and Safeguards Commission to make sure that that is so. There is still more to do, and it’s why there is significant investment—further investment in the budget—that we’ve just brought through.  

Senator ROBERTS: So rather than cutting services, you’re cutting fraud?  

Senator McAllister: The reform package as a whole seeks to make sure that the scheme is sustainable. Minister Butler has talked about stopping runaway cost growth. He has talked about tackling fraud. He’s talking about reshaping markets so that they deliver good value services and quality services to people with disability. The whole package is about making the NDIS stronger and better so it is here for the long term. It’s not a choice between dealing with runaway cost growth or tackling fraud. We actually have to do both.  

Senator ROBERTS: Who are the people whose services will be cut then, if it’s not just fraud?  

Senator McAllister: I’ll ask officials to talk you through some of our expectations in terms of the approach that we are taking.  

Mr Comley: Perhaps the easiest place to draw from is the public disclosure of information and the lines there where it runs through the composition of the reductions across the forward estimates. I also note in reply to your earlier comment, Senator, that that production of documents includes—as does the budget—the savings measure on both a fiscal balance and underlying cash balance basis. I gave you the underlying cash balance. The equivalent number on fiscal balance is $38.1 billion, so they’re both around $38 billion. There are 10 aspects outlined in that production of documents.  

Ms Long: That’s correct.  

Mr Comley: I’ll hand over to Ms Long.  

Ms Long: The reforms cover a range of areas. That includes addressing fraud, compliance and integrity, but it also includes measures around eligibility and participants’ budgets. Would you like me to go across—  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, please.  

Ms Long: As Secretary Comley said, the total impact of the reforms is $38.1 billion over the forward estimates. That can be broken down into a number of components. The first component is around strengthening guidance on what is reasonable and necessary, and that has an impact of $2.9 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is that tightening up on who should get it? I’m using that word ‘tightening’ constructively.  

Ms Long: It’s around what is considered reasonable and necessary and how that is applied in terms of the determination of budgets.  

Mr Comley: To be clear, that measure is for people that are in the scheme, once they’re in the scheme, on what is considered the right level of support. There are other measures Ms Long will come to that go to the question of who should be in the scheme in the first place.  

Ms Long: There’s another element around resetting social, community and civic participation and capacity building budgets, which has an impact of $13.2 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: What do you mean by that?  

Ms Long: There are two particular budget categories. The first one is the social, community and civic participation budget. That’s a type of support that is provided. Another type of support is capacity-building daily activities. Those two types of supports, through a ministerial determination, will have budgets reduced. The social and community budgets will be reduced by 50 per cent. The capacity-building daily activity budgets will be reduced by 10 per cent.  

Senator ROBERTS: What do you mean by community activity? What is the scope of that?  

Ms Long: It’s quite a broad support category. It provides supports to participants to go out and engage in the community. It might involve having a support worker take them out to engage in some form of community activity, for example.  

Mr Comley: It could be as simple as going to a park, maybe having a walk around or feeding the ducks, or it could be a sporting event. It could be a whole range of things. That’s community participation.  

Ms Long: Another element of the reforms is around commissioning plan management and support coordination, which would deliver an improvement of around $1.4 billion over the forward estimates. Also, there has been quite a lot of plan inflation that has been observed, so there are a series of reforms that are aimed at addressing that plan inflation. That includes tightening the criteria around unscheduled reassessment requests and ending plans rolling over and funds being rolled over alongside. The total impact of those reforms is $3.1 billion over the forward estimates. There are also a range of access changes, as Secretary Comley referred to. In particular, in introducing an objective test of substantially reduced functional capacity, that would look to tighten eligibility for the scheme in order to focus that back on significant and permanent disability but also to have a focus on substantially reduced functional capacity rather than disability type. That change would have an impact of $9.3 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: So it’s going to tighten and be more specific?  

Ms Long: That’s correct. There will need to be a range of consultation and engagement on how that’s applied in terms of the threshold, the definition and how that’s done in practice, but, yes, the intent is to focus in eligibility on significantly reduced functional capacity. To date, access to the scheme has commonly been done through access lists that relate to your disability type. This would mean that we would no longer need to use those access lists and instead eligibility would be focused on a substantial reduction in functional capacity. If you’d like, I could keep going through a number of the other elements of the reform package, if that’s helpful.  

Senator ROBERTS: How many more are there?  

Ms Long: There are probably a couple more that I could mention if you like. Another one that might be worth highlighting is there’s a measure for mandatory registration for high-risk providers, which is around, obviously, having registration. That would deliver savings of $0.2 billion over the forward estimates.  

Senator ROBERTS: High-risk providers?  

Ms Long: That’s correct.  

Senator ROBERTS: How do you identify high risk?  

Ms Long: I might need one of my colleagues to talk to the detail of how that will be applied.  

Ms Alisa Chambers: High-risk supports as imagined through the budget is an extension of mandatory registration that we’re moving through at the moment with supported independent living and platform providers, in the new category of advanced registration. Those high-risk supports relate to daily activities—things like catheter care or really intimate personal care—and closed settings, like respite settings, where we see really significant risk to people with disability, particularly people with significant support needs.  

Ms Long: Overall, as a result of the reforms, it’s projected that average growth in the NDIS will be 1.7 per cent over the forward estimates and five per cent over the medium term. Five per cent per annum growth for the NDIS is broadly in line with Medicare and aged-care growth rates. It also means that the scheme will remain steady at around 1.6 per cent of GDP over the medium term on the current projections that we have.  

Senator ROBERTS: I had a question about how those people whose services will be cut will be identified. It’s basically through tightening up the eligibility criteria, which is something that we’ve been talking about for a while. That’s good to see, Minister.  

ACTING CHAIR: You’ve got about another two minutes, Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’ve got questions for quality and safeguards. We’ve identified several fraudsters who need to be investigated and moneys chased down. Is this where most effort should be used to seek restitution?  

Mr Comley: I think the Quality and Safeguards Commission is dealing more with participant safety. The NDIA and Mr Dardo‘s area are more in the area of fraud and misuse of funds. Mr Dardo might want to comment.  

Mr Dardo: Overwhelmingly, our focus is on preventing the money going out in the first place so we can prevent the money leaving the system when it shouldn’t be. The beauty of that is you’re not trying to chase a debt. You’re not trying to chase the money after it’s gone. That’s our overwhelming focus, and we’ve done a really, really good job in identifying problematic providers and stopping the funds leaving before they should. When the money has gone, there are different ways that we might recover it. Raising a debt might be one way. Asking the courts for reparation, like an order to repay, might be another. Another way that we’ve done it is we’ve worked with state or federal policing authorities to seize assets or freeze assets. In one recent case, we froze $5 million in assets and had them confiscated by the Commonwealth. In another case, we’ve frozen $40 million in assets. In a recent case, we’ve frozen another $4½ million to $5 million. It’s really important that we send the message that, even if the money has gone and somebody thinks they’ve gotten away with it, we will actually pursue the assets. There is another avenue that we’ve been using, which is to get the tax office to go after them from a tax perspective and raise taxes and attack the problem from that direction. Overwhelmingly, designing a system to stop the money going out in the first place is our mission, but we do have avenues to try to recover money when it gets to the serious end of fraud.  

Ms Wade: Secretary Comley mentioned that the commission’s focus with respect to fraud is firmly on the behaviour of providers in the market. In addressing that, in addition to penalty frameworks for providers, we have the registration scheme, and we’ve strengthened our approach to the registration scheme to ensure that it detects fraud in more sophisticated ways through recent reforms. As those registration groups grow, which we just spoke about, that strengthened response for fraud detection continues to be enhanced as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: It’s multipronged.  

Ms Wade: Yes, absolutely.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll ask my last question for this bracket. I’ve still got more when we come back. How many cases of fraud are being reported? You said that, if you took them all to court, they’d be clogged.  

Mr Dardo: The way we look at it is that it’s about stopping the integrity leakage whether it’s accidental, it’s sharp, it’s malicious or it’s organised crime. We’ve got to stop it all because any one of those vulnerabilities that are open allows money to leak out of the scheme. We get a significant number of tip-offs every year. We get 29,000 tip-offs every year. They are not all fraud. We’ve got to be really careful in assuming. They’re not all fraud. As you go up the spectrum, there are several thousand ABNs that we’ve already got some controls on through manual payment reviews, and we have been building more systems in the last few weeks that are now turning on. We will put a couple thousand more ABNs into those reviews in the next few weeks. Then you go up the spectrum a bit more, where we’ve got Fraud Fusion Taskforce investigations. There are about 660 investigations, but 400 of those related to the NDIS are either with the commission or with us—or both. Then you get to the ones that are in the prosecution phase. There are a few dozen in the prosecution phase, so they’re in front of the courts or we’ve got briefs of evidence with the CDPP to prepare them for the courts. That’s the spectrum. And it’s really important to note that there is no regulatory system in the world that thinks that every single non-compliant thing is going to end up as a prosecution. That is not the way the world works.  

Senator ROBERTS: How many convictions have there been?  

Mr Dardo: There have been 25 convictions since the Fraud Fusion Taskforce started, and those sentences have resulted, in some cases, in custodial sentences up to six years. There are more cases where there has been a guilty outcome—either pled guilty or found guilty—but they’re awaiting sentencing. We don’t control the dates of the court, so some of those have been sitting there awaiting sentencing for six months or a year. There are cases that are currently scheduled for sentencing in July. They may happen in July; they may happen in December—we don’t know. But there are more cases sitting there right now where they’ve been found guilty awaiting sentencing. 

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One Nation’s Fight to Save the NDIS

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In March this year, the Senate voted down a One Nation motion moved by Senator Hanson that sought to establish a dedicated inquiry into waste, fraud, and abuse within the NDIS.

The rampant rorting, profiteering and misconduct inside the NDIS is draining resources from Australians with genuine need and pushing the scheme toward collapse.

Billions have been siphoned away, frontline workers pulled out of hospitals and aged care, and essential services are under strain nationwide.

One Nation’s position is very clear – genuinely disabled people deserve an insurance scheme for service. The NDIS is meant to be that scheme.

Only strong oversight and honest accountability will save the NDIS and safeguard taxpayers.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: This isn’t about care—about whether or not people care about the disabled. This is about restoring sound governance. This is so that we can have disabled people getting good care. I will make One Nation’s position very, very clear: disabled people deserve an insurance scheme for service—genuinely disabled people. We also want to stop exploitation of the disabled. That’s right: stop exploitation. 

I’m going to read from the terms of reference of Senator Hanson’s motion: 

That the following matter be referred to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee for inquiry and report by 3 September 2026— 

nothing wrong with that. I will read item (f): 

(f) the impact of waste, fraud and abuse on NDIS participants, including the diversion of resources away from Australians with genuine need; 

I’m going to read that again: 

(f) the impact of waste, fraud and abuse on NDIS participants, including the diversion of resources away from Australians with genuine need. 

I’ll go back to the start of the terms of reference: 

(a) the scale, nature and drivers of waste, fraud and abuse within the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS); 

(b) the adequacy of existing safeguards, compliance, auditing, investigative and enforcement mechanisms to detect, prevent and respond to waste, fraud and abuse; 

My responsibility, our responsibility, is to the people of Australia—to the taxpayers of Australia and to the disabled of Australia. The third item in the terms of reference is: 

(c) qualifications of workers under the scheme; 

We know it is being rorted at the moment, with people who are not qualified. The fourth one is: 

(d) the role of National Disability Insurance Agency processes, registered and unregistered providers, intermediaries, participants, nominee arrangements and any other relevant entities or persons in contributing to or preventing waste, fraud and abuse; 

What is wrong with any one of these? Nothing. Nothing is wrong. They’re needed to protect the disabled. The fifth one is: 

(e) the financial impact of waste, fraud and abuse on the sustainability of the NDIS and on taxpayers; 

If we don’t do it, the NDIS will be heading for the largest line item by far on the budget. It’ll go out of existence under its own weight. I’ve already talked about (f). The sixth and seventh ones say: 

(f) the impact of waste, fraud and abuse on NDIS participants, including the diversion of resources away from Australians with genuine need;  

(g) distortionary impacts of increased wages and fees for service under the scheme on the labour market and other industries; 

Nurses and aged care service people are being dragged out of their professions and being put into the NDIS because of the higher wages, the distorted increased wages. This is causing problems for veterans. It is causing problems for people in hospitals and doctors’ clinics. Its causing problems for people in aged care. The eighth one is: 

(h) the impact of the scheme on the housing market and construction costs;  

That’s impacting so many more Australians. There’s a serious impact there. This is about all Australians. This is about understanding the problem, and Senator Hanson has shown yet again that she understands the guts of the problem in the whole context. Who can disagree with any of these? The ninth one is: 

(i) the appropriate scope, powers and priorities of a Royal Commission into waste, fraud and abuse within the NDIS; 

Senator Hanson said it herself just a few moments ago. She’d prefer a royal commission, but this is the first step. The tenth one is: 

(j) any legislative, administrative or governance reforms required to strengthen oversight, restore public confidence and protect the integrity of the NDIS; and 

And restore trust as Senators Bell and Whitten have just spoken about. And the last one is: 

(k) any other related matters. 

This is what it is all about. I can’t see anything there that anyone would object to if they genuinely cared for the disabled, unless they’re rattling the tin to make someone a demon. All of these work to restore trust, service, care and accountability. 

We need to go back to the start of the NDIS scheme. It was a bastard. Julia Gillard as Prime Minister needed a pre-election headline, so she cobbled up the NDIS—minimal research, minimal thought, minimal consideration. Just get that bloody headline. Then the Liberals came into power and they saw a dog with no details. But instead of canning it and sending it back to the states, they saw the vulnerabilities and they tried to stop the rorts. As a result it was overcomplicated, arbitrary and crooks kept stealing. The needy kept getting no service as a result of it being a bastard at birth thanks to the Labor party. I personally think, as a side issue, that the NDIS is best done at the state level because it restores competitive federalism and accountability. I’m in favour of sending it back to the states. 

As I said, it is out of control. As Senator Hanson, Senator Bell and Senator Whitten said, it is out of control. It will soon be the biggest line item on the budget. This is important not only for the disabled where it’s extremely important but also for the taxpayers because of the rorting and the fraud of taxpayer money. The fraud is heading into the billions. In fact, I was told in Senate estimates in an answer to one of my questions that the fraud investigation is stunned with how big the impact of fraud is. It is so big that it will eventually curtail services for people needing genuine care. It will curtail nurses, aged-care workers and other carers. It’s not just affecting disabled who need care. It’s affecting people right across Australia, even the housing market. 

Every Friday I try to do a livestream, and I start with heroes who have been active in our democracy. I want to name two heroes—Drew Pavlou and Pete Zogoulas. They have exposed the rorts. We knew about them. We’ve been raising them, but they started the community with the depth and breadth of the rorts. Ultimately, what happens when we have an abusive government—that’s what this is about. This is an abusive government abusing taxpayer money. There’s no government money. There’s only taxpayer money. There’s an abuse of taxpayer money because very few citizens stand up and hold the government accountable. So Drew Pavlou and Pete Zogoulas deserve commendation for being active participants in democracy. 

For democracy to succeed, we need active participants in democracy. What has happened in this country is we’ve had it too easy, and many citizens have fallen into passive democracy. Then, that falls into apathy, and that falls into tyranny. We saw signs of that tyranny in the way the COVID mismanagement corralled people, stomped on people and suppressed people, making them do some hideous things. And we’ve seen signs of that apathy in the way the Labor government is wanting to bring in and follow through on the former prime minister Scott Morrison’s misinformation and disinformation censorship bill. They destroyed free speech and many other freedoms and basic rights during the COVID response, and now they want to bring in censorship. That’s the essence of human progress: when we have passive democracy, it leads to apathy, and then it leads to tyranny, which, as I’ve just given you some examples, is coming in to this country. Eventually people get sick of the tyranny and they rise up, and we have anarchy. That’s the cycle throughout history: active democracy becomes passive democracy becomes apathy becomes tyranny becomes anarchy. There’s a way to avoid that, which is by having more citizens like Drew Pavlou and Pete Zogoulas. 

We need an inquiry to get the facts. The Greens, being the Greens, introduced talk of an enemy and division. Where’s the enemy? Can you see the enemy, Senator Bell? Where’s the enemy? Why do they do this? They do it because they want to create victims and make those people dependent, and that’s bloody cruel. Victims are in a permanent state of dependence. That’s no way to go through life. I do not see Senator Steele-John as someone in a wheelchair. I respect his ability. I see him as an Australian with plenty to contribute. I don’t agree with much of what he says, but at least he gives that other view. But shame on the Greens for yet again creating victimhood and dependence. It’s cruel. 

We need to clean up the NDIS for the improvement of services to the disabled. Those who really care will support this motion. And the Senate, as Senator Bell has said, is an entirely appropriate place to have this inquiry. The Senate, after all, is the house of review. Let me be very clear: One Nation wants to stop exploitation of the disabled. It wants to give the disabled confidence that they’ll be getting good service, and to do that we need to restore sound responsible governance. 

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The NDIS Fraud Files

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During this Estimates hearing, I questioned the NDIA regarding an investigative series on NDIS fraud by Pete Zogoulas and Drew Pavlou, asking if the agency had launched any audits, compliance actions, or law enforcement referrals based on their reports.

I specifically tried to ask about any investigations into individuals named Jamal Sabsabi, Josef Yusif, and Marcia De Menezes. Mr Dardo declined to comment on individual cases and defended the agency’s broader enforcement system. He emphasised that the agency has identified and removed thousands of fraudulent providers through both public prosecutions and non-public measures, such as manual payment reviews and search warrants.

Mr Dardo further stated that journalists would have no way of knowing the full scope of the NDIA’s confidential actions, adding that some public matters highlighted in the videos had already been actioned by the agency long before the series was produced.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: NDIA, is the agency aware of the investigative series into NDIS fraud produced by independent journalists Pete Zogoulas and Drew Pavlou that has reportedly exceeded two million views on YouTube and more than 100 million views across other platforms? Has the agency reviewed these investigations, and have any audits, compliance actions or referrals to police or the CDPP been commenced as a direct result of the matters they raised?  

Mr Dardo: We clearly cannot comment on individual cases, so I won’t respond at an individual level in relation to that case. What I would say at a broader system level is that, as I’ve previously stated in these hearings, there have been thousands of providers that we’ve identified and removed. In some cases, those providers have been removed through actions that are in the public domain, and you can find them in the public domain because there are administrator reports or there are prosecution outcomes or convictions. Then there are actions where we’ve removed them because we’ve implemented manual payment reviews. When we implement those manual payment reviews, that may not be in the public domain but that’s still thousands of providers that have been treated through those actions where we’ve reduced their ability to claim without us vetting the claims. Then there would be investigations where we’ve executed search warrants which may not be in the public domain. Again, members of the public would not know that we’ve done those warrants. Then there would be cases where investigations are ongoing or prosecutions are imminent or other interventions have occurred that are not in the public domain. So, at a broad level, what I can say is we can’t comment on that case, but there would be no way for any of the people that you’ve referred to to know what we have or have not done in that case, other than the fact that there are some things in the public domain that they have seen or pointed to that we had already actioned well before those videos were produced. 

Senator ROBERTS: Has the NDIS launched any internal investigations in response to this reporting that I specified—in particular, into Jamal Sabsabi, Josef Yusif, Marcia De Menezes—  

ACTING CHAIR: Senator Roberts, the official has already said that he won’t be commenting on individual cases.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll put the questions on notice then because they’re replete with specific cases.  

ACTING CHAIR: Fair enough. Do you have anything else, Senator Roberts?  

Senator ROBERTS: No, I don’t. Thank you, Mr Dardo. Thank you for your succinct answers.

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Driving Real Change in NDIS Fraud Prevention

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When I look at the NDIS and NDIA, I see a system full of contradictions—balancing fraud prevention with accessibility has been a challenge since its inception. In this Estimates session, I focused on fraud and the work of the Fraud Fusion Taskforce. I raised concerns about the gap between over 7,000 tip-offs in the June 2024 quarter and only 16 prosecutions. While I understand investigations are complex, that disparity is striking. Officials explained that not every tip-off is valid; many are misunderstandings or even malicious.

Since November 2022, the taskforce has achieved over 300 compliance outcomes, including bans and revocations, and significantly increased enforcement activity. They highlight that prosecutions are a slow and unreliable metric, pointing instead to indicators such as 35 warrants executed in the first four months of this year—a twelvefold increase from previous years. Custodial sentences and asset seizures have occurred in cases involving millions of dollars and dozens of properties, including seizure orders on 33 houses and multiple vehicles. These results demonstrate that serious fraud is being tackled, even if the full impact takes time to show.

Mr Dardo stressed that success should not be measured by debts, prosecutions, or raids, but by prevention. The Crack Down on Fraud program focuses on identity verification, stronger evidence requirements, and advanced data analytics to detect risks early. These measures aim to make compliance easy and fraud difficult, safeguarding participants and ensuring sustainability. While prosecution remains a tool, the ultimate goal is to reduce fraud so effectively that legal action becomes rare. A recent survey revealed that 899 out of roughly 1,000 plan managers showed indicators of potential fraud, underscoring the need for these preventive systems.

I commend this approach because it makes sense: prevention first, enforcement when necessary. Still, some people will always try to bypass safeguards, and the scale of fraud remains daunting. Australians deserve confidence that the NDIS is fair, secure, and sustainable. We must continue improving systems while maintaining transparency and accountability. Striking the right balance—protecting participants while cracking down on fraud—is critical, and I will keep pressing for progress on both fronts.

The agency appears to be delivering every milestone of its Crack Down on Fraud program on time and under budget, with independent audits and ANAO oversight ensuring accountability. That level of scrutiny and systems uplift is encouraging, but the journey is far from over.

— Senate Estimates | December 2025

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for being here today. I have some questions. It’s very much a contradictory set of questions. I have questions about fraud and questions about how to make more people eligible. The whole NDIS, NDIA, seems to be full of contradictions, from the moment it started back in 2010 or whenever it was.  Could I ask questions about the Fraud Fusion Taskforce first, please. I have some NDIS data—I’m not sure exactly where it came from, but it’s from within the NDIS—that says that for the June 2024 quarter there were over 7,000 tip-offs, but only 16 prosecutions for fraud. Why has the taskforce achieved only 16 prosecutions in a quarter despite 7,000 tip-offs? Can you explain the gap? And I’m not pretending that it’s easy. 

Mr Dardo: The tip-offs that we receive may be treated through a range of mechanisms. It might be that we look at them and we’re able to engage with a provider or a participant and deal with them through education. The tip-off may require us to implement some sort of prepayment review where we would nudge a person to give us some evidence before we make a payment, and maybe we would do a post-payment review, a historic review. It may be that we do a more serious administrative compliance intervention and it may be that we implement manual payment reviews where we stop payments until we receive evidence for each claim. In the most extreme cases, we may revert to a criminal investigation and/or prosecution. It’s really important to note that there’s a spectrum of treatments, depending on the severity of the tip-off and the efficacy of the tip-off. In some cases, we look at the tip-off and it’s actually a misunderstanding, and there’s no substance underneath it that requires an intervention. 

Senator ROBERTS: So, the tip-off itself is wrong? 

Mr Dardo: It might be wrong, or it might be a misunderstanding. In some cases, it’s malicious—somebody having a go at someone else. So, it’s really important that, while we do measure tip-offs and while we have put in enormous programming to improve the way we capture, understand and process tip-offs, the volume of tip-offs alone does not indicate the requirement for a prosecution. While I am talking about tip-offs, once upon a time tip-offs used to be captured, effectively, on a spreadsheet. We have put in a range of system improvements to make the tip-offs more able to be captured in a codified way. So, whether it’s through the call centre or through our online systems, they’re able to be captured in a way where we can code and then analyse the content of the tip-offs. The beauty of that is that, as the volumes have increased—and they are increasing; they continue to increase—we’re more able to run  analytics over the top of them and understand whether the tip-off relates to previous tip-offs or previous treatments or previous risks, then cluster them or group them with associated intelligence or associated treatments. The systems continue to improve by the week, but I don’t want you to assume that every tip-off is going to lead to a prosecution. That would never be the case.  

Ms Myers: As members of the Fraud Fusion Taskforce who work very closely with the NDIA, since November 2022, we have executed over 306 compliance outcomes, including 179 banning orders, 38 revocations of registration and 89 other regulatory outcomes. So, in addition to the prosecutions undertaken, there have been a number of regulatory actions taken. 

Senator ROBERTS: So, restrictions have been imposed and bans et cetera. 

Ms Glanville: I think the really important piece of this is that it’s a very collaborative arrangement between the NDIA and the commission as well as other enforcement agencies. The development and growth of that, I think, has been particularly positive for being able to identify—better analyse, as Mr Dardo was saying—and understand what are the best actions that can be taken to address whatever is the nefarious or other action that has occurred. I think that’s a really important part of this process as well. 

Senator ROBERTS: So, it is a big issue to you, the NDIS and NDIA. 

Ms Glanville: To the commission and the agency, yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: It’s also a matter of restrictions, but I’ll go to total prosecutions and convictions for NDIS fraud. How many since the taskforce was established? 

Mr Dardo: I think, again, it’s really important that we step back. It’s a metric that has a significant lag effect. 

Senator ROBERTS: Due to the court system plus the investigation? 

Mr Dardo: Yes. You may start something and there may be interventions that are lower-level interventions or they may rapidly escalate. Before search warrants are executed—in some cases it’s very, very fast. It could be weeks or a month. In some cases it takes longer. But, even after search warrants are executed, sometimes there’s a charge on the day, sometimes there’s a court attendance notice, and sometimes it takes another six to 12 months to get to a charge and then to get in front of the courts. In some cases we’re seeing cases not getting in front of the courts for several years.  So can I just flag that the number of prosecutions is not a number that’s a great indicator of the level of activity that is occurring, and it’s certainly not a number that reflects the enormous collaborative effort that’s occurring across the agencies. Our colleagues at the commission have been phenomenal in partnering with us, as have been a number of other agencies—Services Australia and the tax office and so on. So sometimes the interventions are actually better administered by other agencies or in partnership with other agencies. If you want something that’s a more indicative number of activity at that sharp end, like the activity that you’re trying to get to, at the very tip of the iceberg—just in the first four calendar months of this year, we did 35 warrants. That’s more than were done in four whole years before the taskforce was established, and that was just in the first four months. So, if you’re looking for an indicator of sharp activity, we’re talking a 12-fold increase in activity in a taskforce. And that doesn’t even scratch the surface of the things that happen underneath investigations—the interventions that are going on.  

Senator ROBERTS: It’s pretty daunting. I don’t know if it was you—I think it may have been you—who, a year or so ago, told us that you were overwhelmed and that the court system would not handle it.  

Mr Dardo: It’s really important to note—and I’ve said this a number of times on the record in this house—that debts, prosecutions and raids are the wrong metrics for a successful system. What we really are trying to build through all our big investments is how you prevent those bad things from happening. If you look at the big system investments we’re making, they’re trying to figure out how you make it easy for people to get it right and really hard for them to get it wrong. That means that all the people trying to do the right thing, which is the majority, are having a better experience. It’s more streamlined, it’s easier for them to get paid the right amount, and they’re less likely to get themselves into a misunderstanding and less likely to be abused by a non-compliant provider. That upfront prevention is, overwhelmingly, our mission. Everything we’re building in the Crack Down on Fraud program is about building prevention upfront so that you can safeguard participants and get sustainability—whether it be improving the identity systems for the people that log in, which we’ve delivered; whether it be improving the identity systems for the providers, which we’ve now delivered; whether it be improving the evidence requirements for claiming so we’re more confident people are getting it right, which we have partially delivered and continue to improve; whether it be building a data analytics system that allows all that data to be pooled together so we can identify risks and stop at prepayment where we can; or whether it be working with our partners to have those risk detections so that we can identify problematic providers and exit them from the system at the earliest opportunity. All those things that prevent bad things happening have to be the focus. You’ll never get rid of the need to raise debt or prosecute; that will always be something in the arsenal. We will need to be good at it, but it should be the last resort. You would hope whoever replaces me in two or three or four years time is sitting here, saying, ‘Actually, we only had to do five prosecutions because the systems work so well that we didn’t have to prosecute.’ 

Senator ROBERTS: What you’re saying makes perfect sense. Nonetheless, some people will deliberately bypass just about everything. 

Mr Dardo: Yes. 

Senator ROBERTS: Deliberately.  Have there been any custodial sentences handed out? 

Mr Dardo: There have been, absolutely. Not only have there been custodial sentences; there have also been successful confiscations of assets. There are people that have gone to jail and are serving custodial time. There are people we’ve grabbed $4 million or $5 million worth of assets from. We have cases in progress right now where we’ve worked with partners, whether it be state or federal, to put seizure orders on, in one case, 33 houses and three cars. Let me emphasise: that was a provider. Custodial is in the toolset, but remember: custodial has got to be an outcome from the courts. We don’t get— 

Senator ROBERTS: Which can take months and months. 

Mr Dardo: It can take years. At the end of the day, the court makes the decision about custodial. We put our best case in the brief, the CDPP puts the best case in front of the courts, and the courts make the decision. 

Senator ROBERTS: I’ll say it again on the record: what you’re saying makes perfect sense. I commend you for that. I don’t know whether you’re doing a good job or not, but it sounds like the right approach to me. 

CHAIR: How much more time do you need, Senator Roberts? 

Senator ROBERTS: Probably five minutes, please, Chair. 

CHAIR: Okay, no problem. 

Senator ROBERTS: My subsequent questions are not really necessary because of the comprehensiveness of your answer. 

CHAIR: Can you put them on notice then? Is that what you mean? That’s a no. 

Senator ROBERTS: Apparently, you stated that a survey showed 90 per cent of a group of plan managers exhibited signs of fraud. 

Mr Dardo: Absolutely. 

Senator ROBERTS: How many of those cases have been referred for criminal prosecution? 

Mr Dardo: That was a discussion that I’m pretty sure we had in a previous Senate estimates. It was a particular subset of plan managers, so it wasn’t every plan manager. It was the plan managers that had between zero and 100 clients. I know that sounds weird, but you can have zero clients because you had clients and you’re not claiming for them right now. There were roughly a thousand plan managers with between zero and 100 clients in that sample, and about 899, to be exact, at the time we did the analysis had indicators that we would think are associated with potentially fraudulent behaviour. Again, there are a range of interventions that we’ve applied there. In some cases we have put prepayment reviews on them, where they can’t be paid unless they provide evidence for their claims. If those prepayment reviews turn up and provide evidence that’s problematic—we look at it and we go, ‘That looks like you’re falsifying your invoices, claiming for things that are not remotely connected to the scheme or claiming for participants that are not getting a service’—then we will work with the commission to remove them from the scheme. That’s an intervention that may or may not go to a prosecution. The other intervention we’ve applied is that we’ve made requests for information for historic claiming and we’ve gone back and looked at their historic claiming. We’ve just done another sample of 47 where the majority of those have problematic claims, so either we’ve referred them to the commission for banning or we have removed their ability to claim from us. We’re working through those.  In some cases we executed search warrants with our partner agencies. In one case, we, the commission, the tax office and some other regulators targeted the plan manager. We got access through a search warrant, a tax debt was raised, and there were banning orders from the commission and other regulators to remove them from multiple schemes. That case may proceed to prosecution, and we’ll work our way through it. In that case, debts were also raised from multiple agencies.  So there’s a spectrum of treatments. We are not going to prosecute every single plan manager that we said had fraud indicators, and there may be some where we look at them and we go, ‘The fraud indicators are there, but they didn’t lead to anything.’ 

Senator ROBERTS: Final question—how will you know you’re being effective, and how will we know you’re being effective? How will we know when fraud is out of the NDIA? 

Mr Dardo: Fraud will never be completely out of the NDIA, just like it’s never out of any scheme. There will always be a level of it that just exists. You have to continue to innovate because it’s an arms race to stay ahead. 

Senator ROBERTS: But, right now, the stories are rife. 

Mr Dardo: They are. It’s about continuing that work for prevention. That has to be the overwhelming focus. 

Senator ROBERTS: How will we know if Mr Dardo has done a good job? It sounds good. I’m not being patronising. I sincerely mean that. It sounds good. What you’re saying makes perfect sense in managing the process. It is what very few managers understand. How will we know that the process has good outcomes? 

Mr Dardo: The first time I came here representing this agency, I sat in this room, and we rattled off the half a-dozen things that needed to be built out as capabilities. We talked about the vulnerabilities in the scheme and about identity, the way claiming was working and the way providers were interacting. We rattled those things off.  When we sat down and imagined the program of work that addressed those things, which government funded, that program of work clearly articulated those layers of capability that needed to be built and delivered. You build 

the foundations, and then you’ve got to keep building. But we laid that out as a program of work called the Crackdown on Fraud program—the systems uplift. That systems uplift was funded by government. In February 2024, it commenced. We delivered every single milestone in that program of work between February 2024 and now, on time and under budget. Let me rephrase that slightly—within the timeframes that we promised we would build it. We started two months later than we said we would, so a couple of things have finished a couple of months later than we said they would. But it was built within the timeframe we said we would build it.  One indicator for you that we’re doing a proper job is we are building those layers of defence on time, and, as they go into production, we can actually see that we’re stopping things from happening that used to happen or that used to be completely invisible. We are now more confident that some of those things we promised would be there are there. The journey is not finished; we’ve got a long way to go. But it’s about how we deliver on those promised uplifts so that the system is less likely to be open to abuse by those who want to abuse it. 

Senator ROBERTS: Would you include in that an audit of the systems, to make sure the systems are working as you say? 

Mr Dardo: I can assure you that we’ve got eyes—not just our eyes but everyone else’s eyes—on it. The ANAO comes and looks at us and makes sure that we’re actually building what we said we were going to build and building it on time. The Department of Finance gateway reviewers come and look at us and say: ‘You promised this. Did you build it? Has it been delivered on time?’ So, there is an enormous amount of independent assurers coming and looking at what we promised for the money that we got and whether we’ve built it to the standard that we said we would. In addition to that, we’ve got independent assurers that work on the program with us who write reports for government about whether we’ve delivered what we said we would on time and on budget. The scrutiny is impeccable. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Thanks, Chair. 

CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Roberts. 

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