This is the second Senate Estimates I have raised questions about Chinese Communist Party contact points (or Chinese overseas police stations) in Australia. We know they exist and that this issue has been investigated and confirmed by mainstream media.
I asked Home Affairs, the department responsible for Australia’s security, why there is a CCP contact point office in Sydney. Home Affairs avoided answering – this from the department responsible for national security policy. What hope have we got? This is the same department that helps META censor accurate social media posts from Australians, yet it won’t discuss CCP activity within Australia.
I was told Home Affairs was not the correct agency to ask these questions and was directed to the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). The head of ASIO said he has no knowledge of a contact point in Sydney and referred me to the Australian Federal Police (AFP), who likewise stated that they had no evidence or information of this.
There must be a reason why they refuse to discuss this and are maintaining the secret.
Transcript below.
Transcript below.
Transcripts
Home Affairs
Senator ROBERTS: Yes. Given the general concern about the Chinese Communist Party’s global involvement in overseas affairs, in many countries’ affairs, why is there a Chinese contact point in Sydney? The
contact point is a Chinese Communist Party-staffed office set up in a country outside China.
Mr Smyth: I would refer you to the Department of Foreign Affairs for matters in relation to that?
Senator ROBERTS: Well, you’re in charge of security.
Mr Smyth: I look after policy in relation to issues. But issues that go to bilateral relations with foreign governments or countries or their activities is a responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
Senator ROBERTS: I’m after program 1.2, national security and resilience, so I’ll continue.
Senator Watt: With respect, Senator Roberts, you can’t just ask any question that includes those words in it. There are particular departments that are better suited to answering certain questions, and I think DFAT is probably the best department to answer the questions you’ve just asked.
Senator ROBERTS: I would doubt that, Senator Watt, because this is a security issue.
Senator Watt: Sure, but we want to make sure that you get the very best possible answers. You’ve already heard from the officials that DFAT is probably best placed, and they’ll be up on Thursday.
Senator ROBERTS: The AFP deputy commissioner investigations, Reece Kershaw, addressed this matter in a Senate estimates hearing in November 2022. He said that he did not believe the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further detail. So these questions are being asked to update the current situation. Is there still a CCP supported contact point in Sydney? That’s a yes or no answer. It doesn’t need to upset anyone.
CHAIR: Senator Roberts, the AFP will be appearing a little bit later today. If you’ve got questions for them or are following up from answers that they’ve given at previous estimates, they will be available for you to ask those questions then.
Senator ROBERTS: I’m stunned that the Department of Home Affairs cannot face questions about security?
Senator Watt: That’s not a fair way to put it.
Senator ROBERTS: It is true.
Senator Watt: That’s your take on it, Senator Roberts. We’ve tried to assist you by—
Senator ROBERTS: Let the people of Australia decide on what their take is.
Senator Watt: We’ve tried to assist you by telling you the two different groups you could put those questions to. We’re all going to be here all week and there are opportunities for you to ask those questions.
Senator ROBERTS: What’s the role of Home Affairs with regard to national security and resilience? Minister?
Senator Watt: I’ll suggest that the deputy secretary in charge of that area answers your question, Senator Roberts.
Mr Smyth: In relation to resilience, we have a task force that was established in November 2022, and that’s to better position Australia for what we see as a significant set of risks and challenges that it faces across the full spectrum of national and human induced crises. The task force leads on national resilience policy and strategy. That ensures that the Commonwealth has the necessary policy, legislation and capability to manage what is really an increasingly complex and cascading set of concurrent national crises in the current geostrategic and geopolitical environment. We provide advice to government around issues in relation to national security. We look after national security policy. We look after legislation for intelligence services. We look after countering foreign interference policy, terrorism policy et cetera.
Senator ROBERTS: Counter and foreign interference policy—that’s what I’m talking about.
Mr Smyth: And we do that in collaboration with other portfolio agencies.
Senator ROBERTS: I’d like to know your role in that collaboration.
Mr Smyth: My role is as the National Counter Foreign Interference Coordinator.
Senator ROBERTS: What would be your role in knowing whether or not there’s a CCP-supported contact point in Sydney?
Mr Smyth: I’d have to take that question on notice. I think the evidence that was given to you by Commissioner Kershaw was that that is not an active—
Senator ROBERTS: I’d like to know what it is now.
Ms Foster: I think that the difference perhaps is that Mr Smyth is responsible for the overall policy and coordination, but operational issues will typically fall within the purview of the operational agency which is why the Australian Federal Police is best placed to answer questions about current operations.
Senator ROBERTS: Wonderful! Before you start getting into policy—unlike climate change, where there’s no data, despite driving that policy—what is the purpose of the Chinese Communist Party contact point in Sydney? What is its purpose?
Mr Smyth: I would refer you to the AFP in relation to the evidence that has been previously given by Commissioner Kershaw.
Senator ROBERTS: I want to know what it is now. That was 12 months ago.
Ms Foster: Yes, Senator, and that’s an operational issue, which Senator Kershaw is well placed to answer, and he will be appearing later tonight.
Senator ROBERTS: I want to know what your take on it is, because we’re trusting you with our security.
Ms Foster: I’ve just made a distinction between our role in providing the overall policy framework and coordination and the role of individual operational agencies to manage specific operational issues. I think it’s evident from the fact that the evidence last time came from Commissioner Kershaw that this is an operational issue which the AFP is best placed to deal with.
Senator ROBERTS: What’s your policy for handling the Chinese Communist Party contact points, and what’s the basis of that policy?
Mr Smyth: The issues that relate to that, I think, are best referred to the Counter Foreign Interference Taskforce, which is an ASIO and AFP led taskforce that deals with operational matters in relation to foreign interference activity on Australian soil.
Senator ROBERTS: I’ll acknowledge that you’re talking about operations with other people. I want to know what the basis for your policy is in regard to the Chinese Communist Party contact points in Sydney, because initially they weren’t existing and then we find out they do.
Mr Smyth: Where foreign governments seek to interfere in the democratic process of Australia, we take an interest, but those issues relate more to operational matters for taskforce agencies. In relation to the contact point that you’re referring to, I’d have to take on notice any specific information that we have that resides in this portfolio.
Senator ROBERTS: Okay. That’s two questions you’ve taken on notice. Are there Chinese police officers working out of the premises? You can take that on notice. And are—
CHAIR: Senator Roberts!
Mr Smyth: That would be an operational matter for the taskforce members and also a matter potentially for the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
Ms Foster: Senator, we’re not seeking to be unhelpful. It’s just not helpful to you if we take something on notice which we’re then going to refer to someone else.
Senator ROBERTS: Are there any concerns of the security agencies about potential breaches of Australian national sovereignty?
Ms Foster: That would have to be addressed to the security agencies.
Senator Watt: ASIO will be on later today as well, Senator Roberts. There are opportunities for you to ask these questions. It’s just that they’ve got to go to the people who can answer them.
Senator ROBERTS: I’d would like to know that Home Affairs knows something about this. Should Chinese people living in Australia be concerned? You’re in charge of security.
Mr Smyth: Again, I’ll refer you to previous answers that we’ve given.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you.
CHAIR: Senator Roberts, are those all the questions you have?
Senator ROBERTS: Thanks, Chair.
Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO)
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr Burgess and your staff, for being here. I asked a question of Home Affairs, and they said to come here and also AFP. Given the general concern about Chinese Communist Party global involvement in overseas affairs, why is there a Chinese contact point in Sydney? A contact point, I’m sure you know, is a Chinese Communist Party staffed office set up in a country outside China.
Mr Burgess: I’m not aware of a Chinese contact point in this country other than the official consulate and embassy presence.
Senator ROBERTS: The Australian Federal Police deputy commissioner of investigations, Reece Kershaw, addressed this matter in a Senate estimates hearing in November 2022. He said he did not believe the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further details. These questions I’m going to ask are to update the current situation. You’re not aware of it, so what is the purpose of a CCP contact point?
Mr Burgess: I can’t comment about the purpose of something I’m not aware of. What I will say is my agency does consider and look for signs of foreign interference, and it’s more the behaviour we’re focused on in terms of anyone in this country that might be here doing something which is against our national interest, represents a threat to security and is not publicly declared.
Senator ROBERTS: Would it be something you’d investigate if it wasn’t a threat necessarily to Australian security but a threat to the security of Chinese citizens or former Chinese citizens?
Mr Burgess: Anyone in this country gets our protection.
Senator ROBERTS: Good. As I said, Reece Kershaw addressed the matter and said he didn’t believe it was active, without going into further detail. You can’t tell me how long it’s been in operation? You can’t tell me, a year later, whether there are Chinese police officers working out of the premises?
Mr Burgess: I would stand by my judgement that there is not a Chinese contact point in this country.
Senator ROBERTS: Are there concerns at the security agencies about potential breaches of Australian national sovereignty?
Mr Burgess: Every day in my line of business.
Senator ROBERTS: Do you surveil any threats from the CCP in this country that could affect Chinese residents or Taiwanese residents?
Mr Burgess: I do not talk about operational matters publicly.
Australian Federal Police
CHAIR: Thanks, Senator Scarr. Against my better judgement, Senator Roberts has got two minutes. That probably equates to two questions, and we thank you for your brevity.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing tonight. The 60 Minutes program broadcast on 18 June this year—an investigative story—showed interviews with several Australian citizens who had been intimidated by Chinese authorities and showed proof of the existence of at least one Chinese overseas police station in suburban Sydney. What actions have been taken by the AFP with whom the information was shared?
Mr McCartney: I think we’ve been asked this question a number of times during past Senate estimates and I think we’ve been consistent. In terms of the construct of a Chinese police station operating in Australia, I also heard the Director-General of ASIO state today that we’ve got no evidence or information on that. But, having said that, is Chinese foreign interference a threat? Yes, it is, and we continue to work very proactively with ASIO and other agencies in relation to that space.
Senator ROBERTS: This is my last question. The Australian Federal Police deputy commissioner of investigations, Reece Kershaw, addressed this matter in Senate estimates hearings in November 2022, I
understand. He said he did not believe the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further detail. These questions are asked to update the current situation.
Mr Kershaw: Senator, I’m the Commissioner of the AFP. I think you called me ‘deputy’. You’ve demoted me!
Senator ROBERTS: I have a lot of respect for the AFP; believe me. And I’m pleased you can see it with a sense of humour.
Mr Kershaw: So what was the end of a question?
Senator ROBERTS: Reece Kershaw said that the Sydney contact point was active, without going into further detail. I was going to ask more questions.
Mr McCartney: Senator, I think it was actually me who said that at the last Senate estimates. I would go back to my first answer: there’s no information that indicates that a Chinese police station is operating in Sydney, and that’s a position that’s supported by ASIO.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much, Chair.
CHAIR: Thanks, Senator Roberts. We appreciate you keeping to your word. That’s all the questions we have for the Australian Federal Police. Thank you, Commissioner.
None of these people have a clue as to their portfolio. Senate estimates sometimes is a waste of time.
It does appear that all of these ‘authority’ figures/persons, do not willingly share information or in fact they do – so which is it? And they are passing the buck to other agencies to take responsibility in answering questions which appear to be within their jurisdiction? What are they hiding? Are they afraid of offending the CCP or working with/for them? The compartmentalisation of these agencies makes it difficult to know who’s responsible for what, so what will be/is the outcome of the senate committee’s findings, Malcolm? Keep the pressure on them Senator. We Australians demand answers along with feeling safe from the prying eyes of the CCP or any other threat to our National Sovereignty. Thank you.