For every drink you get, the taxman takes two – and he wants to take more. It’s just another tax that’s out of control.
One Nation believes that you should keep more money in your pocket rather than letting Canberra have it.
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At the February Senate Estimates I asked the National Disability Insurance Agency (NDIA) how much money has the NDIA been able to claw back through identified National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) fraud? Funding across 16 agencies, including the NDIA, of $140 million over four years was provided in 2022 to tackle fraud. Those agencies are working together. It seems reasonable that we should know what return on this investment we’re getting since we’re paying for it.
There are major concerns with the NDIS. It was hastily brought to life and hastily implemented. There are concerns with both over and under-servicing. That’s not necessarily a reflection on the people in the NDIA, but that’s the reality.
I also asked what is being done in relation to auditing service providers who are sucking the scheme dry through fraudulent claims for services that are overcharged or actually not even provided? My questions regarding the amount actually clawed back was taken on notice, however John Dardo, Deputy CEO of Integrity Transformation and Fraud Fusion Taskforce, freely admits to having layers of concern about NDIS fraud. There are over 600,000 participants in the scheme and Mr Dardo says the system is extraordinarily immature for a scheme paying out over $100 million each day, with 400,000 claims a day. Among the risks they’re managing is whether they can be confident that a participant is a real human being, is in the scheme knowingly and actually exists.
Transcript
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing today. On the topic of fraud, how much money has the NDIA been able to claw back through identified NDI fraud?
Ms Falkingham: I’ll ask Deputy CEO John Dardo, who leads that program, to come forward to the table.
Mr Dardo: Thanks for the question. There are different ways to measure that. One of the ways to measure it is to think about how much we’ve prevented from going out the door by implementing systems or detecting the integrity leak before the money has left the door. Another way to measure it is to look at whether we’ve asked the participant or provider to pay the money back. Another way to measure it is by the amount of money that is subject to a prosecution activity—so where it has gone to the courts. Not all of that is recoverable, because unless there’s criminal asset confiscation, or unless there are penalties being charged, that money may not be recoverable. So there are lots of different ways to measure it.
What I would say is that, as my colleague mentioned earlier in relation to detecting the anomalies, there are a range of things that we’ve been building up over the last 18 months to allow us to identify where there are integrity leaks, and what I would emphasise is that integrity leaks are very, very strongly correlated to participant risk. The safety of participants is put at risk when money is leaking to the wrong places. It’s because the participants aren’t receiving the services they need, or because we’ve got providers that are dodgy and are actually growing their businesses at the expense of good providers—so they’re wiping out the good providers—or because that money is actually funding activity for participants that is putting them at further risk, whether it be drug abuse, alcohol abuse, risky behaviours or other behaviours. So the money’s important, but the reason we look at the money is the participant safety impact that it has.
What I would also say is that there’s a level of detail that I can’t share in this forum—I’m happy to do it in a private setting—because we do not want to run a 101 session on how to commit fraud against the NDIA. But I’m on the public record in previous hearings talking about the layers of concern that we have. We have, in round figures, over 600,000 participants in the scheme. The system is extraordinary immature for a system that pays out over $100 million a day, with 400,000 claims a day. It is an extraordinarily immature system. Certainly it’s one of the most immature I’ve seen. If I think about the sorts of risks that we’re managing and investing in, being confident that a participant is a real human being, is in the scheme knowingly and—
Senator ROBERTS: Actually exists.
Mr Dardo: actually exists is an area of risk that we’re certainly unpacking and understanding, and we’re identifying things that need to be addressed.
Senator ROBERTS: Excuse me. Out of respect for the chair wanting to conclude pretty soon, could you take it on notice to provide the figures around the categories of fraud that you mentioned earlier on, please? What money has been saved?
Mr Dardo: We can do that.
Senator ROBERTS: There are concerns with the NDIS. It was hastily brought to life. It was hastily implemented. There are concerns with overservicing, as you know. There are concerns with underservicing and there are concerns with fraud. That’s not necessarily a reflection on the people in the NDIA at the moment, but that’s the reality. Please also take it on notice to answer: what is being done in relation to auditing service providers who are sucking the scheme dry through fraudulent claims for services that are overcharged or actually not even provided?
Mr Dardo: An enormous amount of activity. Some of that activity is some randomised integrity checks. We’ve done tens of thousands of those to try and understand, at a randomised level, what we’re seeing. The sorts of common things we’re seeing include overclaiming, duplicate claims, claiming for services that were never provided and claiming for services that are not consistent with the plan. If I think about some other risk points, we have some particular cohorts where we have very significant concerns about the behaviour of the cohorts, and, when we cross-reference our data with other data such as tax data, for example, we see that some of our providers are non-compliant with basic obligations to the Commonwealth. If they’re non-compliant with their basic obligations to the Commonwealth but they’re managing money on behalf of participants or managing services on behalf of participants, we’ve got concerns. We have several hundred providers where they’re managing money or services on behalf of participants or managing other providers on behalf of participants and yet they’re not compliant with their most basic tax obligations. We’re cross-referencing data with other agencies.
A taskforce commenced in November 2022. At the most egregious end of the offending, that taskforce has 16 Commonwealth agencies working together to identify networks of providers or syndicates that are targeting the scheme. You may have seen some media coverage about the search warrants being executed, the prosecutions being conducted and passports being seized or surrendered as part of bail conditions. That work is continuing to ramp up. We have over 100 investigations in the pipeline, and some of those cases are very significant both in dollar value and participant numbers being affected and also in the egregious behaviour of those providers.
Senator ROBERTS: There are a lot of costs involved. Some of the costs are from the 16 agencies that are working with you and they’ll be hidden from the total cost.
Mr Dardo: No, those agencies were funded as part of that announcement. That funding was $140 million over four years. Those agencies, as well as the NDIA, were funded as part of that Fraud Fusion Taskforce and they’re working in partnership with us.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you.
Both Labor and the Coalition voted to collect billions of extra income tax dollars because they need more money. Yet foreign multinational corporations in Australia are paying little or no company tax.
Bracket creep is a secret tax that means government makes money out of inflation. The government is not indexing the tax brackets to fix bracket creep meaning Australians will collectively pay $38 billion extra in tax over the next four years.
I moved an amendment that would eliminate bracket creep by indexing the tax thresholds. This means the inflation rates would be adjusted for inflation so Australian’s pay the same rate of tax instead of continuing to pay more which is the current situation the government is failing to address.
Instead of giving tens of billions of dollars back to Australians, both Liberal and Labor are happy to keep secretly collecting more and more tax, and by their own admission, they’ll only ever give it back when they can afford to. When can we expect that to occur, considering the current government’s focus is on funding UN climate goals and inflationary COVID debts?
Transcript
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, do you agree bracket creep is a problem for taxpayers in Australia?
Senator GALLAGHER: I think all governments recognise bracket creep is an issue. That’s why governments of both major parties return bracket creep when it’s affordable and sustainable to do so. You’ll notice that, in the reforms to the tax proposal that was outlined by the former government, this does that by lowering the two thresholds and dropping the two tax rates; sorry, I’m getting back into tax land! That’s how we’re dealing with bracket creep. It provides relief, and 84 per cent of taxpayers will be getting a bigger income tax cut than they would have under the former government and paying less tax. By 2034-35, someone earning an average income will pay $21,635 less tax than they otherwise would have without these tax cuts.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, you said you return bracket creep when it suits you and when you can afford it. Doesn’t that mean that you’re taking money off taxpayers, and that it’s really a stealth tax because taxpayers don’t know they’re moving into a higher tax bracket? Bracket creep is when the brackets stay the same but people’s wages inflate and they move into a higher tax bracket—so they automatically pay a far higher rate of tax in the next bracket and they don’t even know it. Isn’t that tax by stealth?
Senator GALLAGHER: No, I don’t agree with that. I think Australians understand marginal tax rates and the interaction between their earnings and those tax rates. I would say again that’s why, regularly, tax cuts are provided to taxpayers—to deal with bracket creep and provide other assistance where that’s possible, where it’s affordable and sustainable to do so. I say that not to say ‘when we choose to’ or ‘when we feel like it’ but because we have to manage a budget responsibly as well. People expect that because taxes pay for all the services that people consume and expect to receive from their government.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, I remind you, before asking my next question, that former deputy commissioner of taxation Jim Killaly, who was in charge of large companies and also international matters for the Australian Taxation Office, said back in 1996 and 2010 that 90 per cent of Australia’s large companies are foreign owned and have paid little or no tax since 1953, due to Liberal legislation that was passed in 1953 letting major foreign owned corporations off the hook. Bob Hawke made sure that the Labor Party was also giving gifts to major foreign corporations by letting the world’s largest avoider of tax, Chevron, off the hook for tax in the North West Shelf. Surely the fix to bracket creep is to index brackets. If we’d done that 10 years ago we would have saved the people $44 billion in tax. You say, ‘Where can we get the tax from?’ I get that tax is the cost of government, that tax is the price of government and that tax has to be paid, but foreign corporations in this country are paying little or no company tax. That means they’re using our services that every mum and dad and family and small business is paying for in this country, and they’re doing it for free. We used to be the world’s largest exporters of gas, we get very little for it, and these foreign companies are sending it overseas. Japan gets $3 billion a year off import duty for our gas going into their country, and we get very little for it. So what I say to you is that we can’t afford it because you’re not taxing foreign multinationals adequately. You’re letting them off the hook. Because you didn’t index brackets in this attempt, over the next four years Australians will pay $38 billion more tax than if you indexed brackets. Surely, you can look at the spending and cut some of that back. Surely, you can look at the taxation of foreign multinationals and make sure they start paying their fair share. Then let Australian families off the bracket-creep hook. Why can’t you do that proper budget for the Australians?
Senator GALLAGHER: There was a lot in that, Senator Roberts. I think your final question was around budget management, and the work we have done in the last or two budgets and MYEFO has been to repair the budget. The deficits are a lot less, going forward. We’ve had a surplus budget, we’ve lowered our debt, we’ve contained spending despite the pressures the budget is under, and where we’ve had revenue windfalls we have returned the vast majority of it— over 80 per cent, 88 per cent I think—to the budget to repair it. We do have to manage the budget responsibly and we’ve been able to do that and provide bigger tax cuts to more Australians. On your point about multinational tax reform, I don’t necessarily agree with all of it because I haven’t been able to verify some of the things you’ve said. We agree that we should be making multinationals pay their fair share of tax—we’ve got a bill before the parliament on that, we’ve got a bill on PRRT and we’ve got a bill on high-balance super, and that is about making sure we are putting the budget on a sustainable footing, that we’re able to pay for defence, aged care, hospitals, the interest on our debt and the NDIS, and that we are able to pay for those services that people expect. But this plan does deal with bracket creep, so I don’t accept the position that you put saying we don’t. That’s part of the reason why we’re doing it. The Treasury advice there is very clear. Our plan provides better protection against bracket creep for 70 per cent of all taxpayers over the decade, including the average taxpayer and those on low and middle incomes.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, how can you say it fixes bracket creep when over the next four years Australians—families and individuals—will be paying an extra $38 billion due to bracket creep? You are not indexing the brackets themselves; you’re just making a one-off adjustment. As soon as that happens, with inflation continuing, you will continue to increase revenues. Inflation hits families in two ways: first of all, goods and services cost more; second of all, they move into a higher tax bracket and they pay more tax. They actually end up with less take-home pay. So I don’t buy your argument. Why doesn’t Labor want to fix bracket creep?
Senator GALLAGHER: I think we’re just agreeing to disagree, Senator Roberts. This plan does deal with bracket creep by reducing two tax rates and increasing two tax thresholds. It does deal with bracket creep. In particular, as I said in my previous answer, for average taxpayers—those on the average wage, and low- and middle-income earners—this substantially improves the money they get back in their pockets, and returns that bracket creep. But you disagree with me—I will keep making that point and, presumably, you will keep making yours.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, you cannot argue with the fact that someone who is just below the next tax threshold will soon be paying higher tax because of inflation. That is a fact. The only way to beat that is to index the tax thresholds. As to supporting my amendment, it shows you do not want to stop rampant increases in tax or you want to keep bracket creep to exploit taxpayers. Why don’t you want to fix bracket creep properly by indexing it so that brackets rise as inflation rises and wages rise, so people stay within the same bracket and there is no creep? Why don’t you want to fix bracket creep?
Senator GALLAGHER: The tax rates haven’t been indexed, that’s right. I understand your amendment seeks to do that. I don’t think you’ve moved your amendment, but I may as well cover off. We are not supporting your amendment. The approach in this bill is preferable to your amendment because it provides governments—I’m talking about not our government but all governments; this is the way it’s been done—with greater flexibility to respond to fluctuations in the economic cycle. This proposal does deal with bracket creep. It does return money to taxpayers. I don’t know where you get your $38 billion figure from over the forward estimates, but I think your point there is that there will be—that’s assuming, wherever that number comes from, that there will be no change to tax rates in that. History will show that governments have made decisions to implement tax cuts where it’s affordable and sustainable to do so on the budget, and I expect governments of both political persuasions will continue to take that approach.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, in my view, I don’t think you’re being honest with the people of Australia, because bracket creep is a stealth tax. Inflation helps your tax revenue. How many pages are in our tax act?
Senator GALLAGHER: We might have to take that on notice. I’m just seeing if we can provide you with an accurate answer, but it’s quite detailed and there are obviously pages that underpin the tax act as well. I’m not sure we’ll be able to do that accurately tonight, but we’ll see what we can do.
Senator Scarr: To the nearest ten thousand!
Senator GALLAGHER: I was going to say: it’s a lot!
Senator ROBERTS: To the nearest thousand would be fine, thanks, Minister. The point I’m trying to make is that we already have a very complex tax system, which is confusing for small businesses and confusing for people who don’t have access to lawyers and deep pockets. It’s confusing for individuals and families. We always support returning more money to taxpayers, and $15 a week is a lot of money to many people. In the overall scheme of things, it’s not very much. In a few years, you’ll be recovering far more. Is there any plan to actually reform taxation properly, to do a comprehensive reform so that the tax system becomes simple, clear, effective, efficient, fair and honest? Is there any stomach within the Labor Party to be honest with the people of Australia and really reform taxation comprehensively?
Senator GALLAGHER: I think the government’s been clear about what our tax changes are. They are the Treasury Laws Amendment (Cost of Living Tax Cuts) Bill 2024, the bills I referred to before on high-balance super accounts, multinational tax reform, PRRT—they are the government’s tax plans. Am I missing one?
Senator Hume: Negative gearing!
Senator GALLAGHER: I don’t accept that interjection. That is the government’s tax agenda going forward.
Senator ROBERTS: I move Pauline Hanson’s One Nation amendment (1) on sheet 2342.
Senator HUME: For the benefit of the chamber, I just want to inform you that the opposition is going to oppose this amendment, Senator Roberts. We won’t be supporting it, because the stage 3 tax cuts were originally designed to address bracket creep but do it in a very structural, costed and fiscally responsible way. While this measure would address bracket creep, you’re absolutely right that the fiscal cost of this change isn’t known, and that’s why we couldn’t support it at this stage. The Prime Minister’s broken promise means that delivering the stage 3 tax reforms as they had been legislated originally is now impossible, but the coalition remains committed to fighting bracket creep and to enshrining aspiration, because strong leaders keep their promises, even when it’s hard to do so.
Senator GALLAGHER: I made some comments previously, but we will also be opposing this amendment. The bill before the chamber does deal with bracket creep. It delivers tax cuts for 13.6 million Australians. It’s carefully calibrated to provide more cost-of-living relief. I know that Senator Roberts said that it was $15. I think that figure he is using is the extra that people will get. Those people will get $15 extra on top of the tax cuts they otherwise would have got, and, for many people, that is a substantial amount of money. We recognise there are other things to do on the cost of living. That’s why our other measures are being put in place. But in terms of your amendment, we oppose it. We think the way we’re approaching it in this bill is preferable, and it’s the way it has been done in the past. It gives government the flexibility to make those decisions when it’s affordable to return bracket creep in a way that can maximise those returns.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, I want to take you back briefly to a previous answer you gave when you implied the surplus—which is correct in the budget. The surplus has only been around for two years because of the strength of our agricultural production and our coal and iron ore exports. That’s the only reason. What we’re seeing is a country that is at the mercy of international prices for its major primary products. If something happens, then we have to rely upon bracket creep to pull us out of the mess, and that’s not fair to Australian families and individuals.
Senator GALLAGHER: I accept that our export industry and our resources certainly contribute to our tax revenue through company tax receipts and others, but the strength of the revenue upgrades has also been improved and strengthened by the strength of our labour market. We’ve had many more people in jobs earning money and therefore paying tax than we have previously. Unemployment is at a record low; participation is at a record high. It’s kicking up a bit now, but that has contributed significantly to the improved position of the budget. Yes, we acknowledge that. Part of that has allowed us to pay debt down so that we’re not paying as much into the future and generations of the future are not paying those interest costs—the fastest-growing cost on the budget is managing the interest costs on our debt— and it’s allowing us to deal with all of those areas of pressure that we talk about all the time in here: the NDIS, aged care, hospitals and defence. They are all big costs coming at the budget, and we do have to manage it in a responsible way.
Senator ROBERTS: I’m not pretending to say it’s easy. It’s complex, but it’s excessively complex. You’re addressing the need for increasing tax revenues for the extra expenditure, including interest payments, but what you’re not saying is that a lot of that money is coming from individuals through immigration, which is putting enormous pressure on house prices and inflation. That’s a real impediment to people looking for houses right now. We’ve got people in Queensland sleeping in tents in showgrounds in Gladstone, in parks in Bundaberg, in parks and on the banks of the river in Brisbane and in Ipswich, Logan and Townsville. I think we’re making a rod for our own back. When are we going to see comprehensive tax reform to take the load off individuals and put it onto large corporations so they start paying their fair share?
Senator GALLAGHER: Well, I’ve outlined that we do have a bill around multinational tax reform to ensure that those big multinational companies are paying their fair share of tax. I think if you talk to many domestic companies they’ll say they’re paying their fair share of tax right now. People have a view about that, I guess. Individuals do contribute substantially to the Commonwealth budget through income tax. We need to generate revenue in order to pay for services. On your point around population and housing, obviously you can’t do everything through tax cuts, and that’s why all those initiatives we’ve got in housing are so important and why we want the chamber to support the latest part of our housing initiatives, which is Build to Rent. We’ve got a full suite of programs. We acknowledge that supply is the problem, and the Commonwealth is right in there with our sleeves rolled up, working with states and territories, to do whatever we can to generate more supply. Also, as you know, some of the changes we’ve made to the migration system have ensured that those net overseas migration numbers that we’ve seen rise post-COVID are coming back down to our more traditional rates.
The Federal opposition has been urged to follow through on calls for real tax reform to stop bracket creep and vote for a One Nation amendment to Labor’s Stage 3 tax changes.
Senator Malcolm Roberts’ amendment would index all tax thresholds to adjust for inflation, saving Australians billions of dollars in extra taxes over the coming years.
Senator Roberts said: ‘It’s time to stop fiddling around the edges and implement genuine tax reform.
‘Bracket creep is the government’s dirty little secret. Inflation means Labor will quietly pocket tens of billions of dollars in extra taxes by doing nothing.
‘As wages increase, Australians move into higher tax brackets while only being able to buy the same things due to inflation yet will be paying more tax.
‘Bracket creep amounts to a secret tax that government is happy to keep collecting to pay for their pet projects of questionable benefit.
‘If Liberal and Labor want to increase taxes, they should put it in a Bill or take it to an election and be honest with Australians rather than quietly relying on bracket creep to secretly plug their budget holes.
‘If the Government gets inflation under control, fixing bracket creep won’t cost the budget anything.
‘Australians don’t deserve to pay for inflation twice because of government mistakes and the budget shouldn’t actually benefit from out of control inflation.
‘If Labor needs any suggestions on areas of spending to fix so they don’t have to keep secretly stealing more money from Australians they can consult One Nation’s extensive work at Senate Estimates for some tips.
‘The flawed $65 billion Hunter Frigate program, the NDIS on track to cost $100 billion a year and up to $8 billion a year in Medicare fraud are all some good places to start.’
The Australia Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) will be using your money to partially fund batteries costing $2.7 billion.
These batteries are 2 gigawatt, which sounds impressive, until the officials confirm they will last only 2 hours out of the whole day. Compare that to a 2 gigawatt coal-fired power station that can be run at 95% capacity factor or 23 hours a day.
We’ll get much cheaper power per gigawatt-hour if we just use coal, abandon the net zero lunacy and all of it’s expensive requirements like grid-forming batteries.
Transcript
CHAIR: Senator Roberts.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for being here again. My questions go to the cost, capacity and suitability of large-scale battery storage. I’m going to reference the Large Scale Battery Storage Funding Round from 2022. ARENA put $176 million of taxpayers’ funds into eight batteries, with a total of two gigawatts of dispatchable power. That was in the media release from Chris Bowen on 17 December 2022. For how long could those batteries dispatch that full two gigawatts of power?
Mr Miller : On average, across that portfolio of eight batteries it’s approximately just over two hours at full power.
Senator ROBERTS: Two hours at—
Mr Miller : Full power.
Senator ROBERTS: What’s the total of gigawatt hours that those batteries represent?
Mr Miller : I think that 4.4 gigawatt hours is the total.
Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Have all eight of the batteries been constructed?
Mr Miller : Not yet. They’re under construction—at least half of them are under construction. Some of them might have been completed—a couple of the earlier ones. We announced quite recently that the AGL battery has actually doubled in capacity since we announced the funding. They’ve chosen to increase the capacity by two times. And there are another three or four that are still to be announced as reaching financial close and construction.
Senator ROBERTS: How many have been built?
Mr Miller : Do you have that?
Mr Kay : Yes. Two are currently in advanced construction—
Senator ROBERTS: So none have been built?
Mr Kay : None are operational at this stage, but there are two that are in advanced construction and others that are at various stages of planning and preconstruction.
Senator ROBERTS: So there are two at advanced stages of construction and no others under construction?
Mr Kay : Yes, that’s right.
Senator ROBERTS: What was the total cost of those projects—well, they’re still underway. What is the total cost now envisaged to be?
Mr Miller : As you suggested, correctly, ARENA’s commitment was $176 million. Mr Kay might have the precise number for the capital costs of those batteries, but I recall that our grant sizing was about seven per cent of the cost of the batteries—a substantial cost, in the billions of dollars, for those eight batteries.
Senator ROBERTS: So we’ll just have to work out the total cost by dividing by seven or eight and multiplying by 100. Something on that media release intrigued me in preparing for today—that media release from 17 December 2022. It talks repeatedly—at least three times—of ‘grid forming inverter’ technology. What is ‘grid forming’? Or is that just a mistake from ‘grid firming’?
Mr Miller : No. It’s correct language. Grid forming means that those batteries have the capability to provide very high frequency support to the energy system. So you would know that the energy system operates at 50 hertz, so 50 cycles a second. That ability to keep the grid operating at 50 cycles a second is traditionally provided by spinning generators from coal and gas plants.
Senator ROBERTS: Hydro, nuclear—
Mr Miller : Not nuclear; we don’t have that in Australia.
Senator ROBERTS: No. But nuclear can provide it.
Mr Miller : In theory, yes. If we had that, it would provide it. But, in Australia, that’s provided by coal, gas and hydro. And, in the absence of coal and gas, what we need is resources to do the job of keeping the grid at that 50 hertz frequency, keeping the system stable, providing the right voltage waveform, and also being able to what’s called ‘black start’—have the grid commence operation from nothing—and that is not a service that traditional batteries without grid forming inverters can provide. What the grid forming inverters provide is the ability to form the wave signal of the grid and stand up the grid without any other support.
Senator ROBERTS: So, correct me if I’m wrong, I’ll just put it into simple language, coal, nuclear, hydro and gas are all synchronous power generation sources, and they’re stable. Whereas, solar and wind are asynchronous and need something added to make sure they’re stable and produce 50 hertz.
Mr Miller : That’s a fair lay representation of the scenario. Correct.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I also was intrigued to notice that Minister Bowen’s press release on 17 September 2022 said:
Over the past decade, we saw policy chaos cause a reduction of 3GW of dispatchable power in the grid, enough to power over two million homes.
What was the cause of that loss of 3 gigawatts? He’s saying that it’s policy. But was that specifically coal fired or gas fired exiting?
Mr Miller : I haven’t delved into those numbers. I’m sure they are correct; but I wouldn’t be best placed to comment on generators entering and exiting the market. I’d refer that question to Minister Bowen if he [inaudible] it.
Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Who do I refer it to now to take on notice?
Senator McAllister: Senator, over the period in question it is the case that 4 gigawatts of dispatchable generation capacity left the system and only one was constructed to replace it, or commissioned to replace it. I do not have the source document for that fact, but I have examined it before and I can assure you that it’s possible to obtain it, so I’ll take that on notice and get back to you.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Last question, Chair. Mr Miller, in your opening statement you say in financial year 2022-2023 ARENA approved $544.1 million—that’s over half a billion dollars—60 projects valued at over $3.5 billion, representing the agency’s largest value of funds approved in a single year. How many of those funds were deployed on investments that were needed because of solar and wind? In other words, are they additional costs to solar and wind?
Mr Miller : As a general statement, ARENA hasn’t supported to any material degree wind projects. Wind has been commercial since the agency [inaudible]
Senator ROBERTS: Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my question. I didn’t mean that you’re investing in solar and wind; I meant that you’re investing in technology or equipment that is needed because solar and wind, for example, is unstable. Or are they to supplement solar and wind?
Mr Miller : If you take those battery projects, for example, which would have fed into that number of $544 million, absolutely, clearly one of the things we were trying to do in that program is provide supporting technology to allow further penetration of solar and wind. So that kind of work, plus the work we do on grid integration—one of our key priorities—would be to support increasing shares of solar and wind energy. Ultimately, all of the technologies we support are in the furtherance of increasing the renewable energy penetration and competitiveness in Australia. So even the hydrogen work that we do—while I couldn’t characterise it as being needed to support solar and wind; it is a technology set that relies on increased penetrations of cheap solar and wind to provide the energy source to make the hydrogen. So it’s ultimately all related to renewable energy supply and competitiveness. All of that funding would be [inaudible]
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for a very clear answer. So these are additional costs that are needed for solar and wind. I wonder if gen costs from CSIRO incorporates them—that’s not for you; that’s just a wonder.
In Senate Estimates I asked who funded and supplied the electric vehicle charging stations (58 in total) at Parliament House in the Capital. Taxpayers are funding the Canberra bubble’s fling with EVs to the tune of $2.5m in installation costs, with the vague promise that this will be recouped in the future. The reason given for the charging stations is to make it convenient for EVs to visit Parliament House. Despite most Australians owning a petrol or diesel car, there are no immediate plans to install petrol or diesel pumps at Parliament House for their convenience.
As the city with the highest average income in the country (over $100,000/year), the Canberra bureaucrats are truly out of touch with the rest of Australia.
Transcript
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair, and thank you for appearing today. The Department of Parliamentary Services has installed 10 electric vehicle charging stations in the public car park. Are they user-pays, or does the ‘Department of the Australian Taxpayer’ fork out for the cost of that electricity?
Mr Stefanic: The user pays.
Senator ROBERTS: Which company owns the chargers, then?
Mr Stefanic: I’ll have to take that question on notice. I’ll correct myself if I have misspoken, but I believe DPS owns the asset that has been installed. We contracted ActewAGL to provide the services with the installation.
Senator ROBERTS: AGL?
Mr Stefanic: ActewAGL, which is a Canberra based joint venture with AGL.
Senator ROBERTS: But DPS owns the chargers?
Mr Stefanic: I believe so.
Senator ROBERTS: How much did you pay for the installation?
Mr Stefanic: The contract for installation is about $2.5 million. We are tracking under budget. When all 58 electric vehicle charging stations are installed we anticipate the cost will be in the order—
Senator ROBERTS: Fifty-eight?
Mr Stefanic: There will be 58 in total. There are 10 in the public car park, 10 in each of the private car parks and eight in the ministerial wing.
Senator ROBERTS: Sorry, what was that again?
Mr Stefanic: Ten in each of the private car parks and eight in the ministerial wing car park.
Senator ROBERTS: How many private car parks?
Mr Stefanic: Four.
Senator ROBERTS: So you’ve got 40 chargers?
Mr Stefanic: Forty in those. Then the 10 in the public and the eight in the ministerial wing make 58.
Senator ROBERTS: So we’re paying for this, but a provider of electricity is making money out of it?
Mr Stefanic: The charges that we are levying for it have two elements: one covers both our administration cost and a recovery of the capital investment, and the other portion of it is the payment for the cost of the energy that goes to the provider.
Senator ROBERTS: So the provider is making a profit out of our—the taxpayers—investment?
Mr Stefanic: The energy provider, as it would for any electric vehicle charging station.
Senator ROBERTS: I didn’t realise that it was within your remit to cover the operating costs of people driving electric vehicles around the Canberra bubble?
Mr Stefanic: It’s not, because it is user-pays, as I mentioned.
Senator ROBERTS: But you’re providing a lot of taxpayer money to enable it.
Mr Stefanic: With the take-up of electric vehicles—and Canberra has, I think, the highest per capita take-up in the country—the range of those vehicles, I guess, necessitates us to lean into the issue and make sure we have availability for charging locally. To the point that Senator Hume raised around people being able to leave the building, sometimes it’s difficult, and having the convenience of a charging facility available at Parliament House is useful. In the public car park in particular, we have around 800,000 visitors a year to Parliament House. With the increase in the take-up of electric vehicles, it enhances our destination from a tourism point of view if people can see that they have access to electric vehicle charging when they arrive here.
Senator ROBERTS: You’re acknowledging that electric vehicles have some inconvenience attached to them, so you’re making provision to supplement that?
Mr Stefanic: No. I’m simply saying it’s a reality. There are electric vehicle charging stations popping up everywhere. We’re simply another building that’s installing them.
Senator ROBERTS: Subsidised by the taxpayer.
Mr Stefanic: They are not subsidised by the taxpayer because we are recovering that capital cost.
Senator ROBERTS: The installation is subsidised but then you recover, which is a pretty good deal for the providers.
Mr Stefanic: We use our capital funds to install the infrastructure, but then we recover the cost from the user.
Senator ROBERTS: How are your plans to install a diesel or petrol bowser progressing?
Mr Stefanic: There are no plans for fuel bowsers.
Senator ROBERTS: Why not?
Mr Stefanic: You need a storage mechanism for those things. So it would be difficult to begin with, given the building, to dig massive holes in the ground to put in storage facilities.
CHAIR: No hydrogen plant then either?
Mr Stefanic: No.
Senator Shoebridge: Next we’ll all get nuclear reactors.
Senator ROBERTS: Is it because diesel and petrol are easier to refuel? You’re saying it’s an inconvenience to use an electric car, so we need to provide services for electric cars so we can make sure we have plenty of visitors to Parliament House?
The President: If I could just correct the record—the department secretary didn’t say it was inconvenient to use an electric vehicle.
Senator ROBERTS: He didn’t use those words; he used other words. Are you aware that electric vehicle sales in the United States and the European Union are plummeting?
Mr Stefanic: No. I’m simply looking at statistics in Australia and in the ACT in particular, which indicate that the take up continues to grow.
Senator ROBERTS: It’s interesting because electric vehicles are inherently much more expensive than diesel and petrol and less efficient overall in use of resources. Canberra has the highest income per capita, as I understand it, of any city in Australia.
Mr Stefanic: I’m unsure of that.
In Senate Estimates, Snowy Hydro Chief, Dennis Barnes, revealed that the tunnel boring machine, Florence, has finally started boring again after being bogged for most of the last year. Florence became bogged because the planning for Snowy 2.0 was rushed and designed to meet a political timetable under Prime Minister Turnbull. A critical review of the Turnbull thought bubble would have never authorised work to start. The scheme has now run into problem after problem that should have been foreseen.
The bogging of Florence is just one of many problems that has seen the costs rise from $2 billion when announced, to a staggering $12 billion today. This does not include $5 – $10 billion in poles and wires to get the power out. Those lines will carve a scar through the Kosciuszko National Park, which for some reason is okay with “greenies”.
Hydro needs water. If the scheme has to rely only on water being pumped up to the top dam, the scheme will never generate enough power to pay for itself and will become a white elephant. The Snowy Hydro Authority are relying on a 2002 water agreement that gives them access to water, however there are many agreements, notably the Murray Darling Basin Plan, that now lay claim to that same water. It is criminal that the Authority has not sorted out its water supply at this late stage.
In the second video I asked about local information received that the tunnel drilling machine will encounter natural seams of asbestos, which will result in more cost and delays. I was surprised to have this confirmed, as asbestos has not been mentioned so far. I can only wonder what else they are hiding. This project is 100% funded by the taxpayers who I think are about to lose a very large sum of money. It will be cheaper to stop the project now than throw good money after bad.
Transcript
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing here today. I said in 2018 that this is a dog: no cost-benefit analysis, no transparent business case and no basis. From your January 2024 project update, it seems that Florence has started moving again, drilling the headrace tunnel at Tantangara. How much distance has been made since the machine became bogged?
Mr Barnes: As of this morning, 241 metres.
Senator ROBERTS: How many weeks is that?
Mr Barnes: That’s about eight weeks.
Senator ROBERTS: Let’s move on to the water. Once completed, how much water will the project require to operate, and what will the losses be to evaporation and seepage?
Mr Barnes: The Tantangara Dam reservoir will contain 350,000 gigawatt hours of water equivalent, which is around 700 gigalitres.
Senator ROBERTS: How many gigalitres?
Mr Barnes: Sorry, 240 gigalitres, two-thirds of that. The losses on moving the water uphill and bringing it downhill is in the order of 20 per cent.
Senator ROBERTS: And evaporation and seepage?
Mr Barnes: There’s no additional evaporation caused by the operation of Snowy 2.0.
Senator ROBERTS: I appreciate you can access Talbingo water, but I’m looking at issues around Tantangara, the top dam. Tantangara Dam has a poor catchment design, as I understand it, holds a nominal 250 gigalitres—you said 240—and is currently at 19 per cent capacity, so roughly 47 gigalitres. You must be watching the water closely, since water is essential to your project. Can you tell me the latest capacity and how much of that is that is dead storage?
Mr Barnes: Tantangara reservoir allows us to store 240 gigalitres. Obviously, before we were to operate Snowy 2.0, we would ensure that it was more full than 19 per cent, but there’s no lost storage in effect.
Senator ROBERTS: What is the effective storage that you’re counting on?
Mr Barnes: It’s 240 gigalitres, which turns into 350 gigawatt hours.
Senator ROBERTS: The long-term weather forecasts say it’ll be fairly wet until it starts becoming dry around 2032, when Snowy 2.0 starts. Tantangara, as I understand it, is used to store and release all of the environmental water going into the Murrumbidgee River. What happens if the 40 gigalitres available after dead water—unless there’s another figure in there; dead water being the amount of water that’s basically inaccessible because it’s below the outlet—are required for environmental flow? Who owns the water that you pump from Talbingo to Tantangara? Can you show me the water use agreement between your project, the federal government and the NSW government, please?
Mr Barnes: We don’t own the water; we operate under the terms of our water licence, which is a public document. Perhaps Mr Whitby can—
Mr Whitby: Senator, I think you’re not taking into account the natural inflows that occur into the upper Murrumbidgee, which, from memory and off the top of my head, is about a similar amount to that 240 gigalitres of storage.
Senator ROBERTS: It’s a fairly small catchment, though, as I understand it.
Mr Whitby: There’s still quite a bit of water that comes in there.
Senator ROBERTS: Quite a bit—how much?
Mr Whitby: I just said, off the top of my head, that it’s around 240 gigalitres of natural inflows.
Senator ROBERTS: So that’s in addition—
Mr Whitby: And, additionally, when Snowy 2.0 is operating, depending on the balance between pumping and generation, you can take water out of Talbingo, the lower storage, which is the whole point of the arrangement.
Senator ROBERTS: My understanding is that the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder owns and controls every drop in that dam.
Mr Whitby: No.
Senator ROBERTS: The Snowy Water Inquiry Outcomes Implementation Deed, SWIOID—which was some years ago—is currently under review based on the upper Murrumbidgee River running dry recently. Will any outcome from that review lead to your water entitlement being reduced or affected in any way?
Mr Barnes: I think it’s too early to say that; it has some time to go.
Senator ROBERTS: That would be a significant risk to the whole project. Surely you’ve done some assessments of it.
Mr Barnes: I think the review will take into account and balance the needs of our stakeholders, including the national electricity market. There are times, of course, where—if we go back to the 2019 drought and bushfires—the flows through the upper Murrumbidgee were higher than naturally would have occurred, as a result of our operations. So it can have a positive effect.
Senator ROBERTS: According to an ABC article, Snowy Hydro has previously stated that the regulation governing water allocations for the scheme is independent of it and that the government owns the water; is that correct?
Mr Whitby: Yes.
Senator ROBERTS: So there’s no agreement at risk here—or anything subject to an agreement?
Mr Barnes: We operate under our water licence. The implementation deed you referred to from 2002 is the instrument that’s under review.
Senator ROBERTS: From 2002—that’s SWIOID.
Mr Barnes: Yes.
Senator ROBERTS: Three weeks ago, the New South Wales government announced temporary water restrictions on Murrumbidgee water licences, specifically water sources I and II, high-flow river licences. Are you confident you’ll always get your water? Everyone seems to be claiming the water—the farms, the towns, the environment—but who actually gets it in the water brawl?
Mr Barnes: I might leave that one to Mr Whitby, but we don’t consume any water.
Mr Whitby: I’m not sure I really understand the question, Senator. Are you asking if we’re confident that we will get future inflows?
Senator ROBERTS: Yes.
Mr Whitby: That’s a matter for the gods; I’ll leave it there.
Senator ROBERTS: So we’re leaving it to the gods.
Transcript
Senator ROBERTS: Of the now $12 billion projected cost, how much of that is private money?
Mr Barnes: I’m not sure I understand the question, but—
Senator ROBERTS: Is it all taxpayer money?
Mr Barnes: Snowy will finance its debt position, because of course we have debt for the purposes of our operating cash flows, from the bank market or the bond market, and I think we’ve been public that the $6 million increase will require some equity support from the Commonwealth. That level hasn’t been determined yet.
Senator ROBERTS: So its component is privately funded; the debt will be privately funded and then paid back through the revenue?
Mr Barnes: Well, we pay a dividend, obviously, to the Commonwealth and over the last 10 years we’ve paid $2 billion in dividends and $1 billion in taxes, so it is an investment that the Commonwealth get a return on.
Senator ROBERTS: I understand that in answer to Senator Cadel earlier on, you said the net present value is now $3 billion.
Mr Barnes: That’s correct.
Senator ROBERTS: Is that with a $5 billion cost or $12 billion cost?
Mr Barnes: A $12 billion.
Senator ROBERTS: Could you provide on notice the price of the power you sell that you envisage? Your selling price? We’d like to get a feel for the cost.
Mr Barnes: The Snowy 2.0 concept is that its revenue comes from two sources: the provision of insurance to all the participants in the market—so that doesn’t have a power price; it has a fee—and then the difference in the cost of pumping the water up, which will likely occur when there is excess renewables, and the revenue from generating electricity as the water comes down. So there isn’t what you would call a translatable energy price that results.
Senator ROBERTS: On what basis is the project calculated to give a net present value of $3 billion? If we could have the basis for that.
Mr Barnes: We’ve done market modelling on those two revenue streams. Bear in mind that that is an activity we undertake today for our current 5,500 megawatts. We have seen increasingly, with the increase in variable and renewable electricity, that the market value of those two services has gone up.
Senator ROBERTS: Can we get access to your costs, please, so that we can understand how the $3 billion net present value is calculated?
Mr Barnes: We haven’t released the detailed business case on the present value of the project.
Senator ROBERTS: So we can’t get it?
Mr Barnes: I think we have taken on notice in the past that we would consider what business case could be provided. But the business case essence is no different to when it originally went to FID.
Senator ROBERTS: A lot of the key assumptions back then were redacted.
Mr Barnes: A business case was released a number of years ago, and all of the same dynamics apply, except that the market for the services we provide has increased.
Senator ROBERTS: Can we get a feel for the revenue from the guarantee—the insurance if you like—as well as the profit on the price difference?
Mr Barnes: I think I’ve said publicly before that—and one can calculate this—the revenue from Snowy 2.0 is in the order of a billion dollars a year. One-third is from capacity sales, and one-third is from a shift in electricity from low-price times to higher price times.
Senator ROBERTS: Minister, it seems to me the taxpayer is taking a big risk here so far with what we’ve seen of the performance of Snowy 2.0. Why can’t the taxpayers see what they’re paying for and the risk they’re being exposed to?
Senator McAllister: I think the history of this project is well understood. We’ve asked Snowy management to take a more active role in assessing and responding to project risk, and we’ve talked already about the reset. I think, as part of the reset, Snowy management—Mr Barnes and his team—released quite an amount of information and the results of their analysis of their position, and they’ve made clear their assessment about the value that sits within the project. If there’s any further information we can provide, we’re happy to consider it.
Senator ROBERTS: Could you take that on notice, please. What are your annual maintenance costs in your net present value calculations?
Mr Barnes: I don’t have the number off the top of my head, but it’s relatively small.
Senator ROBERTS: Could you take that on notice.
Mr Barnes: Yes.
Senator ROBERTS: This is my final question. We’ve heard reports from someone who’s local, so we’re not saying it’s definite—I haven’t got a publication; it’s just reports from a local. Have you encountered natural asbestos as part of land clearing, drilling or construction of Snowy 2.0?
Mr Barnes: I’m not sure we have to date, but we do expect to—
Mr Whitby: I would phrase it as there is a risk that we may encounter naturally occurring asbestos.
Senator ROBERTS: What sort of risk is that? Is it from geology projecting forward? What’s the basis of it?
Mr Whitby: From projection, geological models based on the geological surveying that we’ve done.
Senator ROBERTS: And drilling as a part of that?
Mr Whitby: Correct.
Senator ROBERTS: Where is it, what are the costs, and what delays will this cause?
Mr Barnes: We don’t know exactly where it may occur, but the design of Florence is such that, were it to be encountered, Florence would convert into its closed or slurry mode and be able to handle the excavation. It’s a risk that’s already been planned for.
Senator ROBERTS: So it’s incorporated in the cost?
Mr Barnes: Yes.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair, and thank you.
I spoke on the Treasury Laws Amendment (2023 Measures No. 1) Bill 2023. One Nation supports an efficient, honest and fair tax system. This Bill does nothing to make that happen.
Trickery with franking credits (again), the start of mandating Blackrock and Vanguard style ESG into Australia’s financial system and a potential Robodebt 2.0 are all in this Bill.
Despite Labor’s promises, they continue to fiddle with the taxation system and it is rarely for the better.
Transcript
As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I speak on the Treasury Laws Amendment (2023 Measures No. 1) Bill 2023. One Nation supports an efficient, honest and fair tax system. An important aspect of a fair system to is to make sure tax is not double-charged. That’s what franking credits do. They make sure a tax is not double-charged. They ensure that Australians don’t pay income tax on the parts of dividends on which the government has already collected company tax. That’s fair. There’s no reason to allow the government to double-dip on Australian profits and then again on Australians’ income.
In the 2019 election campaign, Labor proposed changes to the franking credits system. Australia completely rejected those thought bubbles. Labor learnt from that lesson and for the 2022 election, promised there would be no changes made to franked dividends if Australia voted them into government. Yet, now that Labor is in government, schedules 4 and 5 make a number of wholesale changes to how the dividend, share buyback, and franking system currently works. It is a broken promise, yet another to add to Labor’s list of broken promises. Just like when they promised to reduce your power bills by $275, Labor’s promise that they wouldn’t touch franking credits was a lie. As always, the government claims that these are simply modest changes. They’re anything but modest, with large implications for companies and for capital markets. The government hasn’t been able to articulate the need for these changes, nor quantify how big an impact they will have. They’re doing it, and they don’t even know what will happen. We cannot legislate on a hope, a vibe or a wish that it will be okay. While that is, according to some in government, Prime Minister Albanese’s modus operandi, it’s not a responsible way to steer a $1.7 trillion economy. It’s highly irresponsible. One Nation will be opposing these changes in schedules 4 and 5 and cannot pass the bill if they remain part of this package.
Schedule 2 lays the groundwork for standards that align money to climate goals. This would presumably be to create alignment with the greatest scam in finance: ESG standards—environment, social and governance. The powers that be call them ‘sustainability standards’, yet there’s nothing sustainable about them. In fact, UN sustainability policies survive only as parasites on subsidies from the real economy—subsidies: that makes them unsustainable. So-called sustainability standards talk about protecting the financial system from risks. Yet they cannot quantify what those risks are. The idea that the government or, worse, a single bureaucratic department can ever predict and quantify risk to the financial system is sheer lunacy. A brief analysis of history shows that. Did the government and regulatory agencies see the risk of the dot com bubble coming in the 2000s? No. They had no idea. Did the American regulators see the risk of subprime mortgages leading to the global financial crisis? No. They arguably participated in and make it far worse. Did any regulator around the world predict the risk of almost every government in the world going certifiably insane in response to COVID, a bad flu? No, they did not. Over the last three years, the Reserve Bank created $500 billion in electronic journal entries, money concocted out of thin air. Did any regulator predict the risks that would lead to the skyrocketing inflation that we’re still trying to get under control? No, they did not. Actually, some did, and we were ridiculed by the experts. The point here is very simple. The government and the regulators cannot quantify the risk of financial system shock. History shows governments are hilariously bad at it. They certainly won’t be able to do it for supposed climate risks that are nothing more than fabrications concocted from inherent, natural, cyclical variation. By the way, everything in nature—everything in existence—varies, yet understanding of variation is not taught in schools and rarely taught properly, if at all, at university. That’s why Green, Labor, Teal and, sadly, some Liberal-National members and senators spout nonsense in this parliament and in public, concocting and spreading imaginary fears of climate apocalypse, when reality shows simply inherent, natural, cyclical variation.
They cannot even come up with the only sound and essential basis for policy—that is, they’ve never quantified the specific effect of carbon dioxide from human activity. That means they have no basis for climate and energy policy, no specific quantified goals for climate and energy policy and no means of measuring progress towards those goals. We’re flying blind. Australia is flying blind. Energy costs and climate policies are out of control and needlessly imposing huge costs on families, small businesses, our country and our nation’s future. Anyway, the only thing we can do to protect against systemic risks is to make sure that financial intermediaries are well capitalised and diversified to survive any risk that comes to fruition. Doing anything else encourages a lack of diversification and actually increases risk.
I don’t believe in this climate apocalypse nonsense, this climate fraud, yet even for those who do fall for this illusion there’s no serious risk to anything. Let’s look at the supposed science around climate risk. When I ask the government why we need to cut human production of carbon dioxide, they point me to the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the UN IPCC. They’re a dodgy bunch—proven over 40-plus years—yet I don’t think anyone in here has actually read the IPCC reports they claim as proof the climate is going to collapse. If you go to the IPCC’s assessment report 6, you’ll see chapter 12 is the summary of Working Group I, who looked at the actual science around natural disasters. Table 12.12 summarises all of the available evidence on the frequency of extreme weather events. Let me read out the types of natural disasters where even the United Nations has said there has been no detectable increase in the number of natural disasters. I repeat that: no detectable increase in frost, river flood, rain measured in terms of mean precipitation or heavy precipitation, landslide, drought, fire weather, wind speed, windstorm, tropical cyclone, dust storm, heavy snowfall, hail, relative sea level, coastal flood, marine heatwave—and on and on. Although I do not put any trust in the United Nations, government claims it does, and the United Nations says there has been no increase in severe weather events in those categories—none.
Even better, table 12.12 in the IPCC’s AR6 says the United Nations doesn’t expect to see any detectable increase in those categories in the next 80 years under its worst-case scenario. There’s no risk to the financial system from climate change because there’s no need to cut human production of carbon dioxide—end of story.
As an aside, I ask: on what basis does Minister Watt get his frequent fanciful, scary claims of increasing extreme weather events? Wild imagination, Senator Watt? From where do the Greens get their dishonest claims? From where does Senator Pocock get his pseudoscience to support his Kermit green fantasy policies? Is it the family money of Simon Holmes a Court, who now relies on the millions of green subsidy dollars that support otherwise unsustainable and failing wind and solar net zero projects—parasitic subsidies from energy users and taxpayers who pay through needlessly higher prices.
Recently in this chamber I heard Senator David Pocock cite scientists who said they have fears for the climate. Significantly, he did not provide any science to back it up, apparently because he seems to just swallow their words because they claim to be scientists. That’s what’s happened repeatedly in this chamber. People don’t produce the science; they say what scientists conclude and don’t analyse it. Those scientists are on major grants to push the climate fraud. Real scientists don’t peddle unsubstantiated fears. Scientists present science, presenting the empirical scientific data as evidence within logical scientific points, proving cause and effect. Never has anyone done that. Senator David Pocock never presents any such science nor references the specific pages providing such logical scientific points—never. Extreme weather has always been with us. It remains with us and will always be with us. It’s natural and often cyclical.
So what’s the real reason for implementing so-called sustainability standards and ESG? The Assistant Treasurer, Stephen Jones, said it in his second reading speech to this bill: the purpose is to ‘align capital flows towards climate and sustainability goals’. I’ll say it again: the purpose is to ‘align capital flows towards climate and sustainability goals’—political goals, not scientific. Those are the goals of predatory globalist billionaires and the rent seekers who are flogging wind, solar and battery products, billionaires peddling parasitic mis-investments in solar, wind and batteries and transferring wealth from families, small businesses and employers to billionaires, often overseas.
Despite claims that these solar and wind products are the cheapest, the free market has utterly failed to adopt them, because they simply cannot survive in the wild on their own, without subsidies. In other speeches in recent weeks, I’ve documented the huge number of failures in wind and solar projects overseas and here in Australia. They’re falling over like flies. Billionaires behind the climate push are panicking now that their parasitic investments won’t get the return they need. The teals’ sugar daddy, Simon Holmes a Court; Andrew ‘Twiggy’ Forrest; Johnny-come-lately to climate fearmongering Mike Cannon-Brookes; and old stagers Alex Turnbull and Ross Garnaut—having failed with climate scams in the free market, these climate doomsayers now need the government to direct money their way through implementation of ‘climate standards’—they’re going to standardise the climate!—to, as the Assistant Treasurer said, ‘align capital flows’. This is more of the crony capitalism that has ruined Australia. If it weren’t so serious, it would be laughable. This is why I’ve circulated an amendment to strike out schedule 2 of the bill. There’s no reason to even start down this path of folly and pretend that, hidden away in the cupboard somewhere, the government have a crystal ball they can use to predict the future. If they do, they clearly haven’t used it before.
A final concern I’ll raise is with schedule 1, part 2, of the bill. This gives ASIC the power to use ‘assisted decision-making’ processes. That’s their label. This amendment is incredibly broad and vague, and we can assume this will involve some level of automation and, eventually, the implementation of AI, artificial intelligence. It’s incredibly concerning that the explanatory memorandum includes, at 1.24: ‘ASIC may change a decision made by an assisted decision-making process if it is satisfied the decision is wrong.’ Can you believe it? This very heavily implies that a human will not be involved in the decision-making process. An assisted decision-making process should only be in place to assist a human in making a decision. There should not be a robot using artificial intelligence to make the decision itself. The fact that Labor would introduce this blank cheque to the new robot overlords in the wake of a royal commission they called into robodebt is a stunning revelation. If the robots get it wrong, there’s no clear avenue of appeal for a person who is subject to the wrong decision. They’ll simply have to rely on ASIC deciding to look at it on their own motion and finding out it’s wrong. Good luck with that. This change is too broad, and One Nation is raising its concerns now so that these issues can be monitored in future.
To summarise, the government would be better off going back to the drawing board on this con hiding behind the label ‘Treasury laws’.
The Albanese government is deliberately opposing my motion to reveal the infrastructure review it’s using to justify cutting hundreds of millions of dollars worth of badly needed infrastructure projects around Australia. Projects like dams for towns and agriculture, transport projects and visionary nation-building projects. It’s cutting costs in areas where we need to spend, while sending huge sums to the United Nations and Tedros the Terrorist at the WHO.
Australia needs a productive infrastructure so that we can build our competitive and productive advantage and stop relying on other nations who buy our raw materials such as iron ore, for example, for steel and other building materials. Why are we exporting raw materials and buying back finished products instead of making the whole product here? Australia has everything it needs to be self-reliant, except for a government with the common sense to facilitate it.
How many more times will this Labor government be exposed for the secrets its hiding from the Australian taxpayers?
Australians deserve the transparency and accountability they were promised, and the infrastructure this country badly needs.
Transcript
The Albanese government is making secret cuts to infrastructure projects. Twice now the Senate has passed my motion, forcing the government to hand over the full infrastructure review that they used to justify cutting hundreds of millions of dollars in projects. Twice, the government has opposed transparency and accountability about its secret infrastructure cuts. How many more times will the Labor government keep secrets from Australian taxpayers?
This is the Labor review that concluded the Emu Swamp dam at Stanthorpe should be cancelled. Only three years ago, this southern Queensland town was in severe drought and ran dry. They had to cart in millions of litres of water by truck just to survive. Up to 50 trucks carted water hundreds of kilometres every day for 15 months. On what basis did the Labor government conclude Stanthorpe doesn’t deserve a dam? We might never know. The government has so far refused to hand over the review that justifies the decision. If Stanthorpe doesn’t have water, Stanthorpe will die. The Labor government needs to answer why they believe Stanthorpe should be left to die in the next drought. It has literally been hung out to dry. One Nation will keep fighting for those answers and we will fight for more dams across Queensland. What we need in Australia is productive infrastructure to build our competitive advantage—our productive competitiveness. We need dams that agriculture can use to boom. We need cheap power, from which the entire economy will benefit. We need functional roads that don’t have potholes big enough to destroy a car’s suspension.
Australia needs visionary, nation-building projects—infrastructure projects like the Iron Boomerang. Right now, every year, we send 900 million tonnes of iron ore and 360 million tonnes of coal overseas. We ship it overseas. Those are two essential ingredients to making steel, which we largely import. We put that dirt on a boat, places like China buy it, they turn it into steel, they make things like unproductive wind turbines out of the steel, they put them on a boat and they ship the wind turbines back to Australia in the form of steel, where our dopey government buys it off them.
We should let private enterprise build the Iron Boomerang track linking our iron ore and coalmines, so we can make the steel right here in this country. The government doesn’t even have to build Iron Boomerang. They just have to promise they won’t get in the way, and then private money will pay for it. That money is already knocking on the door. These are the kinds of nation-building infrastructure projects that would be on the horizon if One Nation had our way. We certainly wouldn’t be cutting productive infrastructure, like dams, in secret as the Labor government is doing. Before all of that we need accountable and transparent government. Labor continues to prove it will never be transparent. Their secret infrastructure cuts are just the latest example of a government that’s afraid of explaining itself to the voters.
I asked the National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA) about their audits in relation to fraud and found out how their work on a report of recommendations was progressing. A broader chat followed about releasing aboriginal communities from the aboriginal industry comprising white and black activists, consultants, lawyers, bureaucrats, academics and politicians.
What the main remote communities need is autonomy. Allocating funds directly to aboriginal communities will cut out the middlemen and women. Jobs, health and housing.
I listened to Miss Broun talk about the role of the NIAA. Briefly, the NIAA’s purpose is to lead Commonwealth activities, inform whole of government priorities, coordinate indigenous portfolio agencies, enable policies, programmes and services and advance a whole of government approach to improving lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. What was the purpose of the ‘Voice to Parliament’ when the NIAA has such a broad role and funding?
The administration of the aboriginal industry does need to look hard at whether all these strategies, consultants, reports, and micromanagement are getting in the way of progress.
Transcript
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for being here today. I’ve got two sets of questions. There are some short ones to get out of the way, and then I’d like to have a discussion through some questions about behaviour change. I’ll get to the mundane questions, although they’re still important. What money was spent by your agency or given to others on promoting the ‘yes’ case for the recent referendum?
Ms Guivarra: None.
Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I like concise answers. What money has been spent by this agency in relation to any proposed treaty?
Ms Guivarra: We were allocated funding for work associated with the makarrata commission. You will see from the budget papers that that was in the order of $5.8 million, from recollection. I’ll get Dr Gordon to confirm that, and he can give you a breakdown of how much of that has been spent. But, specifically on treaty, again, none has been spent. Our role, essentially, has been to seek information on the processes that states and territories are currently involved in. But I’ll get Dr Gordon to give you a more comprehensive response.
Dr Gordon: That’s correct, yes. No funding has gone towards a makarrata commission. Where the funding has gone in the agency, from that $5.8 million, is towards work on understanding treaty and truth-telling processes underway in states and territories and internationally. As of 30 September 2023, we’ve expended $607,000.66 on that.
Senator ROBERTS: What’s involved in spending that money to gain understanding of what the states and overseas people are doing?
Dr Gordon: It involves some desktop research but also bilateral meetings with states and territories, or multilateral meetings. There have been a considerable number of bilateral meetings over the last year; I think it’s around 25 between the agency and our colleagues in the state and territory agencies, as well as a few kind of broader ones.
Senator ROBERTS: Face to face?
Dr Gordon: It’s virtual, primarily.
Senator ROBERTS: But it’s real humans with real humans? Okay. So you’ve spent six hundred and something thousand dollars out of $5.8 million allocated. What are the prospects for the $5.2 million left? What are the plans, rather?
Dr Gordon: As Minister Burney has stated a number of times, including on 2 August, the government will be considering next steps following the referendum, and that’s a process that’ll happen from this point on. What happens now in relation to that is a matter for government, and that will be informed by engagement with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and also our ongoing work with the state and territory governments.
Senator ROBERTS: That goes to my next question. Minister Burney previously said, prior to the failed referendum, that $1 million had already been spent on the treaty. What is the full figure spent so far on all aspects of that—in the past as well? You’ve just told me zero currently. What is the full figure spent so far, and how much of it is proposed to continue to be spent, given that Prime Minister Albanese has backed away from the commitment to pursuing makarrata and truth-telling?
Dr Gordon: I’m not aware of that particular statement by the minister, but the figure that I just gave you is the amount that’s been spent on work looking at the treaty and truth-telling arrangements. And that process going forward for the remainder is what I just outlined as well.
Senator ROBERTS: A recent ANAO audit found inadequate safeguards and procedures in relation to identifying and dealing with financial risks, including fraud. What plans are being made in response to these
deficiencies?
Mr Worth: The report outlined seven recommendations for improvement in relation to our broader risk and fraud compliance risk management. We have developed, in response to that, an implementation program, making a number of changes to address all the recommendations. We have accepted all of the recommendations. We have completed a number of actions through that, and we’re on track to have closed out all of those recommendations by the end of this financial year.
Senator ROBERTS: Can you list the recommendations, please—what areas? I want to get a feel for it. The reason for that is that the ANAO recently told me they can’t investigate corruption, which includes fraud. So I wanted to find out who can and does.
Mr Worth: The first recommendation was that the NIAA fully implement its risk management policy and framework, including by conducting assessments of enterprise risk, undertaking risk assessments when developing business plans and policies, and undertaking specific activities. The second recommendation was the NIAA conduct fraud risk assessments regularly and develop and implement a fraud control plan. The third recommendation was that the NIAA ensure that advisory committee actions are in line with their terms of reference and that the annual report of ARC, the audit risk committee, to the accountable authority clearly highlights any deficiencies in the risk management and control framework that have been identified. The fourth recommendation is that the NIAA fully implement program and subprogram fraud risk assessments, organisational risk profiles and activity risk assessments, and monitor and fraud risk assessments. The fifth recommendation was that the NIAA implement proactive mechanisms for the detection of provider fraud and noncompliance. The six recommendation was that the NIAA ensure that it maintains a record of referrals, the basis of referral assessment and decision-making against transparent criteria, and makes decisions on whether to proceed with fraud investigations in line with the organisational risk appetite. The final recommendation was that the NIAA monitor and report on resources, time frames and outcomes of compliance reviews and fraud investigations.
Those recommendations were made off the back of the assessments made by the NIAA regarding the effectiveness of the control systems and processes that were in place. So it’s not that things weren’t in place; we did have processes, frameworks and so on. But the conclusion, through the audit processes, was that they were partly effective and not as complete as they needed to be—hence those recommendations. I think it’s worth noting that the audit report itself was issued in May 2023, but a program of improvement had already been well underway and indeed was already underway when the audit team arrived and were doing their work. Work has been progressing, as I said, and is due for completion, to address all of those recommendations, by the end of this financial year.
Senator ROBERTS: Who can and does investigate corruption? ANAO told me they don’t.
Senator Gallagher: The National Anti-Corruption Commission.
Senator ROBERTS: Yes, it does now.
Senator Gallagher: Well, it does.
Senator ROBERTS: No, no—I’m agreeing with you, but is there any federal government agency that has a purview on that? And I notice that NIAA did a lot of this off its own bat. I’m not trying to single NIAA out.
Mr Worth: As with many granting agencies within the Commonwealth, NIAA has processes in place to proactively identify issues of noncompliance, fraud and corruption as well as a responsive mechanism whereby complaints or reports that are received by us are taken on board and investigated. As part of that process, we make an assessment of the accusation or concern and then respond accordingly. In some circumstances, from 1 July, it might be referred to the NACC, the National Anti-Corruption Commission. In other circumstances, depending on the nature of it, it might be referred internally for further fraud investigation and then, depending on how that investigation goes, it could be referred to the authorities for prosecution, or it could be subject to an ongoing Australian Federal Police investigation, for example, or state police forces. For matters of noncompliance it could be referred internally.
Senator ROBERTS: Ms Broun, could you tell me the main purpose of the National Indigenous Australians Agency please. What’s the main role? What do you hope to achieve?
Ms Broun: It’s in the annual report. It’s in our executive order, obviously, and that’s on page 9 of the annual report, if you’ve got it there. I’ll read from the annual report:
- To lead and coordinate Commonwealth policy development, program design and implementation and service delivery …
- To provide advice to the Prime Minister and the Minister …
- To lead and coordinate … Closing the Gap … in partnership with Indigenous Australians;
- To lead Commonwealth activities to promote reconciliation;
- To build and maintain effective partnerships with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people(s), state and territory governments and other relevant stakeholders to inform whole-of-government priorities for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people(s), and enable policies, programs and services to be tailored to the unique needs of communities;
- To design, consult on and coordinate the delivery of community development employment projects;
- To analyse and monitor the effectiveness of programs and services for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people(s), including programs and services delivered by bodies other than the NIAA;
- To coordinate Indigenous portfolio agencies and advance a whole-of-government approach to improving the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people(s); and
- To undertake other tasks the Prime Minister and the Minister require from time to time.
That’s the executive order.
Senator ROBERTS: The next question, Minister, is directed to Ms Broun, but it’s an opinion, in some ways, so maybe you’ll have to answer it. What are the main ways of addressing community needs, and what are the main community needs that you see in remote communities? I’ve been to every Cape York community and some of the Torres Strait Islands, and I’ve been to a couple of the Northern Territory ones. It reminds me of when I was a mine manager. Before becoming a mine manager, I worked on the coalface as a miner. When I became a mine manager, I was sent to various mines to turn them around. I’d walk in—and I was told by the previous mine manager, ‘They’re lazy; they’re incompetent,’ et cetera. I gave them accountability and autonomy and they were wonderful people—the same lazy miners! What I see in Cape York communities is people hungry for autonomy, and ready for it, but they seem to be squashed by what I’ll call—and I’m not referring to you—the Aboriginal industry, which is white and black activists, consultants, lawyers, bureaucrats, academics and politicians. The real people are just missing out. That’s why it’s such a—
CHAIR: That’s what everyone says about us, too!
Senator ROBERTS: I think they’re right; I agree with you! Is there any thought to allocating the money directly to communities and getting rid of the Aboriginal industry that’s feeding off—
Ms Broun: Thanks for that question—which is very broad ranging.
Senator ROBERTS: It is. I just want to start the discussion.
Ms Broun: The closing the gap national agreement identifies a whole range of areas we need to do better on. The Productivity Commission draft review identifies that we need to accelerate that effort as well—so it identifies some of the gaps. The minister has also consistently looked at those priorities around jobs, housing, health and education. Jobs is a really critical element of this, and it goes to your statement as well. In terms of funding communities directly, the Indigenous Advancement Strategy has a range of ways that that happens currently—so different programs go to different providers. One of the ones I mentioned in my earlier statement was the Indigenous rangers programs, and the funding that that provides to community organisations directly. It’s about jobs and about connection to country and culture as well. It has lots of elements to it and it currently employs about 1,900 people, with a plan to double that by 2030. That goes to your point around jobs as well. If there is more to that that you’d like answers to, I can get the right people up in terms of housing and jobs.
Senator ROBERTS: I was told by a very bright young councillor at Badu Island—I asked, ‘How’s closing the gap going?’ He said: ‘Mate, it’s not going. Whatever happens to the Closing the Gap campaign, there will be a gap because people are feeding off the money. It’s not the community’s.’ That’s what he said, bluntly. In America they have charter schools—I’m just trying to make a parallel and see what you can come up with. Charter schools are where the money goes from the government directly to the community for their school. They have found that, instead of going from the government to the bureaucracy, the locals have responsibility and the charter school flourishes because the principal and the parents take responsibility. I’m wondering if there is a parallel that can happen with the Aboriginal communities. These are wonderful people, very bright and ready to go; they’re just held back by bureaucracy and the Aboriginal industry. Is there any thought to giving the people the opportunity to develop their own future? That’s a sure way to get accountability.
Mr Brahim: Throughout Australia, there are quite unique and complex circumstances.
Senator ROBERTS: It’s not easy.
Mr Brahim: In relation to the schools—and I know Education was here yesterday—across Australia there are—
Senator ROBERTS: No, I meant community things in general—giving more autonomy to the community, not just schools.
Mr Brahim: Using the charter schools as an example: the education department funds Aboriginal independent schools—so that goes straight to the schools. We fund a lot of community as well not necessarily through a provider, so the communities themselves—
Senator ROBERTS: When you say ‘we fund’—
Mr Brahim: The NIAA funds. There are different funding streams that go through different pathways. One pathway is through to the community organisations—so it’s not always through to a provider as such. Some communities are incorporated and will receive the funding directly from us.
Senator ROBERTS: I will finish up with this: I can remember, sometime around 2012-13, I was driving into Canberra listening to the radio, and they had allocated almost $1 billion back then—when a billion was a billion—and built 15 houses in 18 months. The people from the Northern Territory, the Aboriginal communities, were saying, ‘Give the money to us and let us build them.’ I think that was a fine idea, but instead the bureaucrats controlled it and got consultants, workers and contractors in from southern parts of Australia when the Aboriginals were hungry for jobs. It just didn’t make sense, and the outcome wasn’t there.
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