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When Care Turns Into Exploitation

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I spoke with Ms. Liz Hefren-Webb and raised the issue of overcharging by service providers, which is depleting the limited funds available through Aged Care packages.

I highlighted the case of David and Sandra Smith, whose package was debited $3,000 for a small, incomplete gardening job. As a result, they were unable to access certain medical services because they could not afford them. Their complaints to the Commission fell on deaf ears; the Commission provided no explanation for its decision and refused to discuss the matter with the Smiths.

I also raised the case of Mr. Garry Bayliss, who had $14,000 taken from his My Aged Care account simply to replace some timber railings on a fence. Again, the Commission failed to take any action to remedy the situation.

Ms. Hefren-Webb suggested sending the details to the Agency for re-examination. I also raised concerns about the proposed introduction of co-payments into Aged Care packages, which will reduce the actual services provided. Many recipients cannot afford these additional costs, with some services charged at rates of $100 per hour or more. I stated that these shortcomings do not constitute quality care and amount to institutional elder abuse.

– Senate Estimates | December 2025

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing today. Since the introduction of personalised aged-care packages, there has been an abject failure, it seems, of monitoring how funds allocated are actually spent. This is
one of the major failings of the administration of the NDIS that may well bankrupt Australia and be responsible for the death of vulnerable Australians. My question is specifically about the case of David and Sandra Smith. Under their package, they are entitled to some assistance in minor property maintenance. They needed some minor trimming of half a tree and a few branches of another on the property. That was not even completed. They found that $3,000 had been taken out of their package and given to the contractor without discussion between the Smiths and the service administrator of the package. Having raised the issue as a complaint, the Smiths have been ignored. Because of the depleted funds, the Smiths had to cancel some medical appointments they could no longer afford. This issue is gravely affecting their health at an age when they can ill afford such events. The Aged Care Quality and Safety Commission closed off their complaint and refused to even discuss it with the Smiths. They refused to even discuss it, and no explanation was given. To me, this seems like elder abuse by a government agency that is supposed to help older Australians, not abuse them. What is the cover-up, and why was $3,000 paid for next to no work?

Mr Comley: I think the commissioner will provide a response, noting, of course, that it’s difficult for us to talk about individuals in this forum. I will ask Ms Hefren-Webb to comment.

Ms Hefren-Webb: Obviously, I can’t comment on any individual case, and I don’t have any knowledge of the case you’re talking about. We receive around 10,000 complaints a year. Each of them is triaged and assessed, and we do provide a comprehensive response to people. I am not aware that we would ever refuse to provide a response, so I would be very happy to follow up the case you’re talking about.

Senator ROBERTS: So we can put you in touch with them?

Ms Hefren-Webb: That would be great. I’d be very happy to get in touch.

Senator ROBERTS: It does raise issues of accountability, the level of care and the attitude in the department.

Ms Hefren-Webb: It sounds like it’s an issue of pricing that they’re concerned about.

Senator ROBERTS: It might actually be fraud as well.

Ms Hefren-Webb: Potentially. I think the third-most-common complaint we receive around home care is about pricing of services. We do investigate those complaints and we do follow up to see what has driven the
particular pricing. You weren’t here earlier when I said we will compare providers and, if another provider is offering the same service for a lot less, we will ask the provider to explain how they arrived at that price.

Senator ROBERTS: Do you normally get quotes?

Ms Hefren-Webb: We don’t get quotes; we ask the provider how they have come up with their quote.

Senator ROBERTS: So you do not insist on a second quote, but you ask them the source of their quote?

Ms Hefren-Webb: It’s the provider who is managing the package. If there’s a price that the consumer feels is excessive, we will investigate how that’s come about. That’s our role. If we suspect that there is a fraudulent
aspect, we will obviously refer that through to the department, because they’re responsible for fraud and assurance and we’re responsible for compliance with the standards.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. We will send the contact details.

Ms Hefren-Webb: That would be great.

Senator ROBERTS: Could you check on notice if you have dealt with this or if Aged Care have dealt with this? We would like to know what happened.

Ms Hefren-Webb: Will do.

Senator ROBERTS: This disgrace has badly affected the health of two innocent senior citizens who deserve an answer and money put back into their package. Is that what happens when something is found to be incorrect, wrong or unfair?

Ms Hefren-Webb: I think the department has responsibility for dealing with fraud and how that is dealt with in terms of the individual’s package.

Senator ROBERTS: If there’s something wrong specifically, is the money given back to the aged person?

Ms Snow: I think there would be a range of options. If it’s okay, it might be best to work with the commission really closely to have a look at the case, have a look at what’s been undertaken to date and come back to you.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Thank you. I see the caveat, but, if appropriate, can money be put back into their account?

Ms Snow: Yes.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Then there is the case of Mr Gary Bayliss, who had $14,449 taken from his My Aged Care account to replace some worn-out timber rails from a fence. Again the commission failed to take action to remedy the fraud. Now the minister has announced that the concept of co-payments is to be instituted into the aged-care packages. That will mean the cancellation of many services needed by package holders, because they will become unaffordable. Minister, the proposal is that many services will need to be paid for at a rate of least $100 per hour, often at more than twice the market labour rate. An age pensioner cannot afford this. From the absurd to the impossible, this is not care, as I said earlier. It’s abuse. Minister, what can you do to fix this?

Senator McCarthy: Thank you for your questions and the concerns that you’re raising on behalf of your constituents. Clearly, there are many stories there that you’re hearing that really hit at the heart of how people are
feeling in terms of their own care. I will take your questions on notice if that’s okay and get back to you with regard to that particular question.

Senator ROBERTS: Please also take on notice the bigger picture of what can be done.

Senator McCarthy: Sure.

Senator ROBERTS: Commissioner, could you take on the case of Mr Gary Bayliss?

Ms Hefren-Webb: Yes, absolutely.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. We’ll be in touch.

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Major parties team up to vote down Aged Care Amendment

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Last night the major parties teamed up to vote down my amendment to the Royal Commission Response Bill which would have ensured at least one registered nurse is on duty at an aged care facility 24/7 by February instead of July.

The entire crossbench voted for my amendment including the Greens, the Jacquie Lambie network and David Pocock. Why the major parties would team up to vote down good legislation, caring for our aged should be a concern for Australians. My amendment is available here and the record of who voted for and against is available here.

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One Nation and Pensioners on the Cashless Debit Card – Misinformation

Misinformation has been spreading that One Nation, Pauline Hanson and Malcolm Roberts support putting pensioners on the cashless debit card. This is categorically untrue. My position on this is very clear in the HANSARD.

During debate on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020 an amendment was moved which stated:

At the end of the motion, add “, but the Senate calls on the Government to provide a commitment that no recipient of the Age Pension or a Veteran or Service Pension will be placed on the Cashless Debit Card, with the exception of those who volunteer or are referred by the Family Responsibility Commission, child protection workers, social workers or the Alcohol Mandatory Treatment Tribunal in the Northern Territory”.

Senate HANSARD, 9 December 2020

I voted YES for this amendment protecting pensioners and veterans which is shown in the official HANSARD division (voting) data, as did the Government, indicating that this commitment was accepted by them.

Senate HANSARD, 9 December 2020

With a Federal Election approaching some disingenuous actors are trying to stir up fear based on lies about One Nation. Pensions are not welfare like JobSeeker (formerly the dole) payments are.

I do not support pensioners being put on the Cashless Debit Card. My voting record on this issue couldn’t be more clear. This scare campaign against pensioners appears to have been led by Labor and activist groups aligned with them. Early in 2022, QLD State Labor MP Brittany Lauga had to apologise for misleading Parliament when she said there was a plan to put all aged pensioners on the Cashless Debit Card.

One Nation supports a raise in the Aged Pension. While the major parties will continue to play politics with the Aged Pension only One Nation can be trusted to stick to its word.

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RBA props up banks with $100 Billion

The Reserve Bank of Australia has just given $100 billion to prop up the banks but why is the government ignoring spending that would increase our productive capacity like road, coal power stations and dams?

Transcript

[Marcus Paul] All right, the RBA this week cut the interest rate down to you know, virtually nothing. 0.1% interest rates. So I mean, it’ll help people buy or stay in their homes, but there is a cost of course, self-funded retirees as we’ve talked about on the programme, who rely on investment income, and seeing their returns fall to basically nothing.

[Malcolm Roberts] That’s right. And then so, these people providing for their so-called own retirement is just hot air, because the legs had been cut out from under them now. We’re now at the point where retirees are having to spend their capital, because the return on their nest egg is almost non-existent and heading negative. And what’s disturbing is that, you know, this is going to create a lot of pressure for people at a time when people don’t need it. And by printing another a hundred billion, and giving it to the banks, they’re going to prop up the banks to do more mortgage lending. This government, the state and federal are completely ignoring the need to invest in productive capacity. We need to invest in power stations, dams, roads, ports bridges. The Iron Boomerang Scheme, the Bradfield Scheme. These and many other prime investments, opportunities in our country

[Marcus Paul] Yeah.

[Malcolm Roberts] Are being neglected. And we need to get into building the productive capacity of our country.

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