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Labor ignores One Nation’s Industrial Relations Fix

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For many years I have been pointing out the exploitation of casual workers who are paid less than workers doing the same job next to them. Despite Labor’s promises, they have failed to do anything to fix this problem.

My Equal Pay for Equal Work Bill prevents the exploitation of workers through the use of casual labour hire contracts in 7 industries where the award mandates full time employment, including the Black Coal Industry.

My bill targets large labour hire companies who are using enterprise agreements to allow mine owners to move full time employees over to casual employment, on rates of pay that are up to 40% less than the directly-employed mine employee working next to them.

Half of the workers in the Black Coal industry are now employed on these contracts.

The ALP have been promising to fix this problem since 2018 and have done nothing. This may be because the CMFEU has signed off on these enterprise agreements in return for union dues, superannuation contributions and a fee from the Mining Companies for each contract adopted.

Nationals Senator Perin Davey spoke against my bill today because in her words, the wording of the bill may allow the Minister to extend the provisions to agriculture.

The Nationals are giving half the picture. Any extension requires the consent of the Parliament by way of a Disallowable Instrument. If the Minister has the numbers for an instrument to pass, this would also mean the Minister has the numbers to amend the Fair Work Act 2009 on their own accord.

The Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Pay) Bill 2022 will not impact on rural or small businesses.

In opposing my bill the Nationals are using a dishonest argument to align themselves with labour hire companies against the interests of coal miners and coal mining communities.

With State elections coming up in NSW and Queensland, it is clear a vote for the Nationals, Liberals or the ALP is a vote for corporate interests over coal mining communities.

One Nation is proud to stand for coal miners, and with the workers affected by labour hire exploitation including airline air and ground crew.

Labor has also indicated they will not support the bill. So much for the party of the workers.

Transcript

As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, my Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 was drafted in response to exploitation of casual coalminers in central Queensland and the Hunter Valley. It’s since been widened. My bill was referred to the Education and Employment Legislation Committee for inquiry, and I thank the committee for organising a public hearing so miners could testify about their exploitation personally. The committee found there was a need for my bell yet then recommended waiting for the government’s version. Labor announced its hollow ‘fair work for fair pay’ idea back in 2018, four years ago. Labor and the unions campaigned on their bill in the 2019 state election in New South Wales and the 2019 federal election.

The problem is that Labor’s bill did not exist. I confirmed that and began drafting my bill in April 2021. Labor’s bill was not introduced into parliament until December 2021, a month after my bill was completed and three years after Labor first promised it. If the Labor Party were serious about fixing this issue, their bill would have appeared in 2018, not four years later after One Nation repeatedly called them out.

Labor’s bill was a dog’s breakfast, so the government has chosen to start over. Now, I accept the government saying it’s just started meeting with stakeholders, yet a briefing with the minister’s advisers last week revealed that consultation has only been with the companies and union bosses that perpetrated this scandal. The miners, air crew, ground crew and other workers ripped off for tens of millions in wages have not yet been consulted after six months, which of course means the Labor Party, the CFMMEU and the industry are trying to find a way to keep these labour-hire contracts going. I’ll explain why in a minute. And so I’m advancing my bill, preparing for a vote early next year. I thank Senator Babet for allowing me to use his bills time today.

Early in my career, I spent three years in the union as an underground coalface miner, including in the Hunter and Queensland. My father was an underground coalface miner, senior executive and later Queensland Chief Inspector of Coal Mines. He was awarded an Order of Australia for eliminating black lung in our state’s coal industry. Having completed an honours degree in engineering, I returned to manage coalmines, which involved daily interaction with the CFMEU in the Hunter and in Queensland. This issue is very personal to me because the CFMEU and its predecessor, the Miners Federation, were once strong unions that looked after and served their members. The reports I received in my Senate office in 2019 from Queensland and the Hunter have shocked me. After visiting these areas repeatedly and listening to miners, I was no longer shocked. I am outraged at the injustice.

The big picture is this. Labour hire companies were employing casuals in black coal industry production despite the award not allowing it. It was illegal. Exclusion of casuals extends beyond the black coal industry. It includes airline flight crew and other awards, which I will speak to in a moment. Back to the black coal award. Casuals are excluded for a good reason. Coal mining can be dangerous. It requires training and constant skilling to improve productivity and, most importantly, for safety—safety of an individual miner and safety of the whole mine and everyone in it.

Underground miners typically retire ahead of most other industries, when they can no longer do the physical work. That’s why proper unions like the old Miners’ Federation negotiated high rates of pay. The modern award is much lower than negotiated rates because it assumes miners can be reskilled and redeployed into other industries after they exit from mining, allowing for a full working life. That’s a fairytale. That simply ignores the reality of life in the coal industry. Labour hire contracts are used to cut miners’ wages. This represents a 40 per cent cut in wages against the pay a permanent miner earns in a mine’s direct employ, doing the same job, side by side. Two Australians working side by side doing the same job on the same shift, and one is getting 40 per cent less than the other. That is wrong.

This has been going on for ten years under the Hunter CFMEU, working with some mining companies and with protection from the local Labor members, Joel Fitzgibbon and now Dan Repacholi. Casual coal workers on labour hire contracts supposedly receive a loading for loss of holiday and sick pay; yet their pay packets are still 40 per cent less. What caused this large reduction in pay was not the absence of loading, because that was supposedly paid. It was the very low base rate that the CFMEU installed.

In 2021 One Nation supported the concept of not enabling workers paid for casual loading because that was paid. What we did was to ensure that workers retained their rights under industrial laws to take legal action for illegal pay rates. Yet the CFMEU then lied, shouting that One Nation stopped workers from getting what was theirs. No, we upheld miners’ rights to pay and entitlements while at the same time protecting small business from being forced to pay casual loading twice, as some union bosses dishonestly demanded. It was the union that signed up on these enterprise agreements that robbed workers of 40 per cent of their pay. The Hunter CFMEU pocketed union dues from labour hire casuals and money from labour hire employers for dodgy enterprise agreements with low pay rates. It was the Hunter CFMEU that jointly directed coal long-service leave funds that under-accrued and avoided paying employer contributions to labour hire casuals. I exposed that, and a government review later confirmed me as correct. It was originally a Hunter CFMEU owned labour hire company that collected fees from the mines for supplying labour under a labour hire contract. The CFMEU is clearly directing labour to protect their nice little earner, even at the expense of the workers that the Hunter CFMEU supposedly pretends to represent, while hypocritically and deceitfully speaking badly of casual employment and workers.

The committee report accurately describes the effects on communities of the reduction in local spending due to taking wages out of the community. I was lucky enough to find a lawyer who drew these agreements up on behalf of Hunter labour hire companies and who has since seen the error of his ways. His advice informed my bill. Many exploited workers contributed to my bill. I have the most knowledgeable legal minds on labour hire contracts in the coal industry contributing to my bill, and I have generations of personal experience in the coal industry. What confuses my critics is that I’m not lining the IR club pockets with overly complex wishy-washy nonsense that opens more loopholes than it closes, as Labor’s short-lived dog’s breakfast did.

My bill will fix this mess. My bill sets an additional provision for Fair Work Australia to require an enterprise agreement to pass before being approved. It allows an employee to appeal an existing enterprise agreement to Fair Work if an enterprise agreement breaches this new provision. The provision is simple: a worker on a labour hire contract must be paid the same rate of pay, including allowances, as a worker who is directly employed doing the same job on the same shift roster. That is clear. If the whole crew is labour hire, then the commissioner must make a judgement on what the rate of pay should have been based on historical information and a comparison with similar mines in similar conditions. That is clear. The cost of using labour hire contractors will now fall on the employer rather than the worker. The intention is to require the employer to project their labour requirements, employ, train and nurture their people—like employers used to.

One complication is that some workers are on day shift and others on rotating shift. My bill takes that into consideration. Clause 3(b) of the bill expressly provides that the roster the employee is working must be considered in the assessment of equal pay for equal work. The committee report correctly identifies when labour hire contracts subvert the black coal mining industry award 2010 and the aircraft cabin crew award 2020. I’ve circulated an amendment to this bill to include the airline operations ground staff award 2020 which makes provisions for casuals that foreign companies bypass to exploit workers through labour hire contracts. I know Senator Sheldon is leading a fight against that exploitation. My bill will give him the ammunition to drag the whole situation back to Fair Work. I urge Senator Sheldon and Labor to adopt it.

My bill’s simplicity will prevent lawyers feasting because it allows Fair Work commissioners discretion to make value judgements. I reckon they’re up to it. The remaining awards are excluded in the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 as a line in the sand. While labour hire agreements are not being abused in these industries, explicitly including those awards in this legislation was designed to ensure labour hire firms do not treat these awards as a new profit centre once the opportunity for exploitation is removed from coalmining and aircraft operations.

Witnesses who discussed their treatment under labour hire contracts were pleased to have the opportunity to publicly testify, and I thank the committee. These workers were not always afforded that opportunity. Stuart Bonds, from the Hunter, listed case after case after case where miners have been employed under labour hire agreements with a 40 per cent reduction in pay rate. More troubling were the stories of exploitation and victimisation these workers received, especially following a safety report or physical harm.

Simon Turner testified to the committee on his inhumane experiences as an injured worker. He’s one of many, sadly. Workers like Simon tried for years to get justice. The mine owner and the labour hire company completely ignored him—tossed him on the scrap heap. The Hunter CFMMEU betrayed workers. Local Labor MPs let them down. Only when workers came to One Nation was progress made.

Another worker on a labour hire contract saw a safety issue—water trucks laying down too much water, creating slippery conditions—and reported it. This worker was required to report that safety issue. Her contract was terminated the next week. There’s no job security in labour hire contract arrangements. Workers injured at work were refused medical treatment and not paid workers compensation or accident pay as legally required. Workers were afraid of reporting safety issues for fear of being sacked.

Workers were rostered two years in advance to work 52 weeks of the year straight—no holidays. If you’re working a full-time 12-hour shift and being given these shifts two years ahead then you’re not casual. You are a permanent worker. Despite being, in effect, permanent these workers are unable to get home loans, car loans and provide a future for themselves and their families because banks won’t lend to casual labour hire employees. When I say exploitation I mean exploitation!

All this happened with the Hunter CFMMEU doing deals enabling mining companies more interested in profits than basic human decency. Labour hire deals and contracts are used to lower wages across an entire industry. Qantas pulled this stunt on their ground crew. They fired thousands of workers and re-employed them through labour hire companies at the lowest rate of pay. What’s a worker to do? Refuse the deal and have no job or take the deal and try to get by on 40 per cent less? Qantas are using these tricks on flight crew and pilots as well. Senator Sheldon can speak to this, so I won’t. Correct loading on a plane is vital to flight safety and people on the ground.

In my meeting with Qantas, their executives defended their behaviour as being ‘necessary to maintain viability’. Qantas have run their staff into the ground, cut staff pay to the bone, moved staff from full-time secure jobs to casual junk jobs, worked staff on shifts with not enough time to recover, provided insufficient training and supervision—and now things are going wrong. What a surprise! And they belted loyal, long-serving employees with COVID injection mandates. One Nation’s Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 remains the only legislation before parliament designed to correct this unfair and dishonest corporate behaviour. It should have been in the government’s Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022, but it’s not. Yet it’s not too late. Here it is.

I’ll now discuss the specific topics in the committee report. Firstly, the bill does not act widely enough. My bill allows the minister to add more than the seven awards this bill currently covers by using a disallowable instrument where exploitation occurs. It allows the minister to remove that listing should an industry stop exploiting. This is surely best practice? Only act where there’s a problem, and only for as long as the problem exists. Adding 700-plus awards ‘just in case’ will needlessly add to the cost and complexity of our industrial relations system.

Secondly, definitions of key concepts. The definitions enabled every submitter to correctly understand my bill’s intent, yet some of them went on to say the definitions were incomplete after correctly identifying the meaning of the words used. The wording was chosen carefully because once a term is given a specific meaning, that meaning is considered the term’s full meaning. Cunning lawyers use detailed definitions to limit a term’s application. This allows for deficiencies in definitions to be exploited as loopholes. I will not play the industrial relations club’s game. It’s up to the Fair Work Commissioner to decide if a labour hire agreement falls under this bill’s provisions. Should the Fair Work Commission fail to honour this legislation’s intent, then and only then should we wander into the legal minefield of definitions that become exclusionary rather than inclusionary. It’s time to start using clear language expressing clear principles and rely on the Fair work Commissioner to exercise their wisdom and knowledge and to follow these principles in their judgements.

My bill’s intention and action: my bill provides a provision to existing provisions that enterprise agreements must pass to meet the Fair Work Commission’s approval. This test is in section 321 of the Fair Work Act 2009 to show this equal pay for equal work provision is separate and additional to the better off overall test—the BOOT test. Section 321 is exactly where this provision belongs.

In conclusion, the supposed downside that some vested interests attribute in broad terms comes from the same entities who turned industrial relations into a club for their own profit and power at the workers’ expense. These entities do very well from complexity. Workers pay the price in so many ways. This must stop. If the government is serious about equal pay for equal work, get on with it. I thank senators contributing to this debate and look forward to bringing the bill to a vote at the next opportunity.

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Rushed Industrial Relations Reforms risk wrecking workplaces

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Labor’s Industrial Relations reforms have been rushed through the Parliament. The entire crossbench had previously agreed to hold off on passing the changes until the 273 page bill filled with technical changes could be properly analysed and understood.

Unfortunately, Labor has secured support after horse trading with Senator David Pocock. Senator Pocock caving in means that the rushed legislation (which is still being significantly amended up to the final hour) will sail through Parliament before anyone can understand any of the unintended consequences.

This is not how we should run the country.

Transcript

As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia and to the workers and small businesses of our nation, I want to firstly thank the minister’s staff and the departmental staff for their briefings. I want to thank the many companies, unions, employer entities and workers. We listened.

The Hawke-Keating years broke the previous harsh, adversarial, mutually assured destruction policy in industrial relations in this country. Then we went back with the Fair Work Act from Julia Gillard in 2009—complex, prescriptive. The creators of this act do not understand industrial relations. A senior practical Labor MP whom I regard very highly said that Gillard’s Fair Work Act was a ‘backward step’, damaging Australia. It’s failed. Many want it changed. I know that union bosses like David Noonan and Michael Ravbar, for whom I have some regard, and Alex Bukarica and the ETU’s Michael Wright say that we need to change, that we need to get back to basics. Employer and industry groups say the same. Parliamentarians in this chamber say the same. How hard is it for workers to know their entitlements with this? It’s impossible. How hard is it to run a small business these days? It’s very difficult. This thing justifies the industrial relations club’s existence. Workers now kowtow to the industrial relations club.

Let’s go back to basics. Unions were formed in the 19th century to protect workplace basics; to protect pay, safety, entitlements, job security, retirement; to ensure fairness; and to strengthen workers’ bargaining power. Then we got laws to protect state and federal workers. Unions were doing a vital job. Politically they were omitted from being held accountable the way other organisations and company directors were. After successful union campaigns, governments legislated worker protections in employment, safety, industry and health legislation. Unions were no longer needed for those basic protections because they were enshrined in legislation, yet they had immunity from many provisions under the law and were effectively monopolies, with no competition among unions within industries. As with all monopolies, this was the result of government legislation. As with all monopolies, they faced no accountability from competitors. As with all monopolies, some union bosses abused this privilege.

In recent years, in this cosy life with no competition and no accountability, we saw abuses in the HSU, the SDA, the AWU and the CFMMEU in which union bosses stole workers’ money for personal, financial and other benefits, including brothels. In the 1990s I was good friends with Jim Lambley, the then CFMEU vice-president. He shared with me his thoughts that the union, which was once strong and powerful and genuinely committed to miners, was sloppy and not providing a service to its members. Times had changed; it needed to lift its game because traditional services were already legislated. As a result of neglect of union members, union membership in the private sector outside the Public Service is just nine per cent and falling.

Not all large unions have a monopoly or bosses that want to exploit them. I single out and compliment the TWU. They’ve had turmoil, just like every entity, but they’ve sorted themselves out. They’re represented here by Senator Sheldon and Senator Sterle—excellent advocates for the trade union movement, excellent advocates for workers, excellent advocates for Australians. One of the reasons is that the TWU contains not only employees and truck drivers but small businesses. The TWU is the largest entity with the largest membership of small businesses in this country. They work together to provide a service.

I was going to discuss the sheer abuse and exploitation of people in the Hunter Valley at the hands of the CFMMEU, combined with BHP, combined with Chandler Macleod, which is part of Recruit Holdings from Japan, the largest labour hire company in the world. Instead, I will ask a few questions of anyone watching today.

Labor titles its bill the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill. Let me give you facts and ask you what you think. Firstly, the new bill omits any hint at the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill, my bill that has been pushed for months now and which aims to lift casual pay rates. Why? The Senate committee of inquiry agreed on the need for my bill. They said, ‘Let’s wait for Labor’s version,’ but it’s not in the bill that we see before us. My bill is ready to go, with certain awards that found no issues with it. How long do abused miners and airline staff need to wait? Let’s get the experience before widening it. Why not include my bill in this? We’ve researched it thoroughly. I asked last week and the minister’s staff said, ‘They’ve barely started consultation.’ Then they did so with the perpetrators of the heinous acts in the Hunter Valley and Central Queensland. They’re not interested in better pay. They’re not interested, and they’ve done nothing to include it.

Let’s look at job security. Well, look at COVID mismanagement; the phasing out of the coal industry and jobs under the Liberals, Nationals and Labor; the erosion of our rights and freedoms under COVID mismanagement; increasing energy prices; killing manufacturing and hurting agriculture; the lack of much-needed tax reform and much-needed economic reform; increasing debt; work health and safety systems being bypassed; Australia’s productive capacity being destroyed; the failure of our industrial relations systems and more; tax reform; high immigration flooding in and putting downward pressure on wages; and inflation. They’re not interested in job security at all.

Then let’s have a look at the summit. It was a sham. It was not a genuine, Paul Keating-style consultation. The government knew beforehand what they were going to do after the summit. The key items in this bill that they’ve now got in front of us in the chamber were not even raised in the summit topics. I wrote to Joel Fitzgibbon, the previous member for Hunter, on the abuses in the Hunter valley, and he refused to reply to me. It was the same with his replacement, Dan Repacholi, and the same with Minister Burke. They are not interested in job security, fairness or the law.

Now we’ve got a bill before us that is another 249 pages plus government amendments—150 amendments to their own bill in the lower house. That’s another 34 pages. They’re going to add more complexity, make it thicker, make it more difficult for people to understand. These 150 amendments confirm that the bill was hastily introduced and not thought through. If there are so many amendments needed and so many flaws can be identified in such a short time, how many will implementation in the real world expose, and who will pay for that? Workers will pay for that. Small business will pay for that. This is so flawed the government is making amendments to its own amendments!

This is a spit-and-hope bill. When the Australian Building and Construction Commission was introduced, there were months of consultation. When it was abolished, there was none. The same should apply to the whole bill. It needs debate. It needs to be deferred and considered properly. Who pays for this mess? The people: union members, small businesses, workers, communities and the nation.

Let’s have a look at the bill now. There are 27 parts, 13 substantive. Some are simply tidying, and that is good. Some are worthy improvements—minor but worthy—and that is good. Some big issues are not thought through. Some big issues have been thought through yet deceptively hidden because they don’t want the people to see them. Some issues were designed deliberately to confuse and to obfuscate. All is slapped behind the false labelling of enabling a pay rise and more secure jobs. This is what you get out of the south end of a north-facing bull. There is no mandate for stuff that’s been hidden—no mandate at all.

On 22 November 2022, Minister for Small Business Julie Collins failed to answer two core questions: how many small businesses will be drawn into wage bargaining and how much it will cost. They added another definition to the already 140 definitions of ‘small business’ across government departments. The government tells the people of Australia that the whole rationale behind this bill is to get wages moving, yet there’s no specific detail: how, when, who? There is nothing concrete, just broad, fluffy statements, typical of the Labor-Greens-teal coalition governing the Senate. Labor claims it will improve the bargaining position of small business and workers, so why do thousands of small businesses oppose it? Could it be due to this?

Why are union bosses given the power of veto to frustrate the bargaining process? Even if employees agree with the employer, they still can be vetoed by remote union bosses. Why are smaller employers locked into a process they do not support if they have a head count of more than 19 people, including those who choose to work only a few hours a week? Why isn’t the full-time equivalent used? As a result, large businesses can negotiate conditions smaller businesses cannot compete with. That aids large businesses to kill off smaller competitors, leading to fewer jobs, plus small businesses lack the resources to deal with the red tape.

The abolition of the Australian Building and Construction Commission illustrates the government’s aims and intent: rewarding union bosses with power. That’s what’s behind this bill. It means a return to the damaging days of industrial thuggery. Remember the BLF? The Dyson Heydon royal commission revealed so much thuggery in the CFMEU. There were court cases and criminal convictions. The ABCC worked. Labor abolished it. The coalition reintroduced it. Labor is now abolishing it. There were millions of dollars in fines. What will happen to them? There was violent behaviour, industrial blackmail, killing small businesses and restrictive work practices that cost taxpayers an additional 30 per cent on building costs. Who’s going to enforce the law now?

This bill will in the long run harm unions. It gives more power to union bosses over members and industry and generally in the community. Monopolies discourage responsibility and competitiveness of service and they reduce accountability. This bill entrenches the monopoly and makes it stronger.

Unions may receive a short-term boost, yet, long term, it will accelerate, sadly, the slide of declining union membership. Look in Queensland. Premier Palaszczuk aims to kill the Red Union. She is protecting the Queensland nursing union, who are big donors to Labor. She is trying to kill the Red Union, which is starting freely, because she wants to kill any competition to her union bosses that donate. This is not about higher pay and job security; it’s about giving union bosses power over industries, over companies and employers and over workers. Instead of returning to the pre-Hawke days, we need the reverse. We need to restore the primacy of the workplace, the employer/employee relationship, with employees free to bring in unions when they choose.

The big picture is that industrial relations needs comprehensive reform. We need to get away from the industrial relations adversarial approach that has plagued this country. It locks managements, executives, union bosses, consultants and lawyers into industrial relations games and not into improving businesses. Instead of having the brightest and best lawyers and accountants focused on how we can smash the opposition in this country, we need to focus on how we can smash the opposition in South Korea and Japan and China. They are our overseas competitors.

Industrial relations reform needs to be comprehensive, focus on the primacy of the employer/employee relationship and return to the days of Hawke-Keating, at least for a start. People need to focus on their business, not the corporation. Always around the world in workplaces people are focused on their workplace—that’s what people love. We need industrial relations reform that develops responsibility for the business. We need a short bill, instead of this monstrosity. We need about 20 pages of basic entitlements, and, instead of getting off the hook through lawyers with this monstrosity, we need clear provisions so that, if these basic provisions are violated, people go to jail. Workers are getting abused in this country. Small businesses are getting abused in this country. We need simple provisions and severe penalties.

Let’s consider the teals—David Pocock as a teal and the Labor-Greens-teal governing coalition. The governing coalition in this Senate is Labor-Greens-teal. Fifteen amendments he announced on Sunday. The government was going to do nine anyway! Four are corrections and another four are corrections to government oversights in the bill! The JobSeeker rate is irrelevant to the bill—horse trading! That leaves one amendment that Senator Pocock initiated. Union bosses will still be able to drag small business into multi-employer bargaining, and to get out of multi-employer bargaining those businesses will have to engage in expensive litigation. Welcome to the new Labor-Greens-teal coalition running this country, where the love of power is more important!

In conclusion, instead of the lies and pretence of this bill, we need honesty. Instead of boosting union bosses’ power, we need to make the employer/employee workplace relationship the focus to get Australia’s talent to the fore and to make us competitive again. Instead of adding more complexity and regulations, we need comprehensive industrial relations reform—simplicity, honesty, efficiency and real protection. This mess bypasses protections and leaves workers vulnerable and exposed. Above this building, we have one flag. We are one community, we are one nation and we work like hell to protect workers, protect small business and restore honesty in governance.

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Labor tries to take credit for One Nation policy

Labor Senator Tony Sheldon has attempted to take credit for policy which One Nation is actively pushing through the Parliament while Labor lets their version lapse.

Tweet from Tony Sheldon

One Nation’s Equal Pay for Equal Work Bill is currently subject to a Parliamentary Inquiry while Labor’s Bill hasn’t even been introduced to the Parliament. Only One Nation is moving forward with legislation to ensure companies using labour hire companies have to pay casual workers a minimum of the same as permanent employees doing the same work.

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George Christensen on the Globalist Agenda – TNT Radio

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George Christensen joins me on the Malcolm Roberts show for TNT Radio to talk about his upbringing, crony capitalism and how to stop the globalist march through our country.

Transcript

Announcer 1:

You’re with Senator Malcolm Roberts on today’s news talk radio, TNT.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Thank you so much for listening in today. We have another special guest. This guest is breaking into the media, whereas Christine Dolan was part of the mainstream media and now is setting a new chart and doing investigations to take her beyond the mainstream media. George Christensen is my next guest. Now George was in the National Party, part of the LNP coalition, and he had had enough of politics, so he got out and he’s doing a stellar job in informing people because by way of his own broadcasting, his own work in the media, so I’m going to ask him to talk about that. So welcome, George.

George Christensen:

Thanks very much, Malcolm. Great to be on your show.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And I must say it’s a pleasure having you, because we didn’t engage that much until you actually joined our party. And you’re not here because you’re a member of our party now, but I got to work with you during the election campaign and I loved working with you. You’re frank, you’re direct and you’re bloody well informed. You don’t open your gob unless it’s factually based. So before we start, what do you appreciate, anything at all?

George Christensen:

Well, without making it a mutual admiration society here, can I say I appreciate you Malcolm, and I appreciate what you’ve just said, but you are an absolute warrior. You are a warrior in the Senate, and it’s fantastic to see you in full flight, exposing the globalists, exposing the vaccine madness, exposing the World Economic Forum, the climate change myth, all the rest of it. Malcolm, you do a fantastic job for the Australian public.

George Christensen:

Now that we’re done with that, and I really do mean it but now that we’re done with the mutual backslapping, can I just say, you asked me the question what do I appreciate? Well, look, I appreciate freedom most of all. Freedom and liberty, Malcolm. These are the two fundamentals for any flourishing and functioning society, and without it we don’t have a functioning society or a flourishing society. We have a dictatorship or a totalitarian society which will eventually stagnate and die. So that’s what I appreciate most of all.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Okay. Thank you so much, and thank you for your kind words too. I know they’re sincere because that’s the way you operate and that’s what has drawn me to you. Where were you born? Let’s understand what makes George tick, because I know that that freedom is deeply ingrained in you. You went to journalism, part of the way through. Now you’re going back to journalism. But I get the sense that your inquisitiveness was developed at an early age, and your sense of truthfulness. So tell us where were you born and what shaped your early years, and what sort of parents did you have, what sort of influences?

George Christensen:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, I was born in Mackay, didn’t move far from that spot obviously. I was raised there, educated there, had my first job there and started a career in journalism there. Served on the local council there.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

So what was your first job?

George Christensen:

Well, my first job was actually sweeping the floor in my dad’s shed, although that’s not a real job, just got paid pocket money. But my first job actually was… Well, I had some part-time gigs at university. I wouldn’t even consider them real jobs. I was a factory worker in a newspaper printery actually. It was a casual work that I did at university to help pay the bills. But the first proper job-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

What were you studying at uni, George? Journalism?

George Christensen:

Journalism. Journalism, yeah.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Okay, so you got a job in one of the newspapers.

George Christensen:

Yes. That was my first job in Mackay, at a newspaper that’s now closed down. It was one of those free local sort of community newspapers called the Pioneer News. So it wasn’t national or international, hard hitting stories, but it was about the local community and people appreciate to know what’s going on in the local community, who’s doing what, who’s helping, what issues there are. So that was where I cut my teeth in journalism, Malcolm. Yeah. But look, as I said-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Is that why you went into journalism?

George Christensen:

No. Look, it’s an interesting story as to why I went into journalism. I mean, just to go back to your last question, I grew up in a very, I don’t want to stretch this too far but a poor family comparable to others. My father lost his leg to cancer at the age of 19, and so he was a disability pensioner when I was born although he was very much trying to get out of that by doing anything and everything. He was a taxi driver actually for most of the time when I was a little kid. My mother also had a disability. She was an epileptic. And the reason them two met was they met in a rehabilitation centre actually, so it was because of their disabilities that brought them together and the fact that I’m here. So I was one of those kids that went to school barefoot, because Mum and Dad at the time couldn’t afford to buy new shoes. You know, that was my growing up.

George Christensen:

So university seemed like not really something that I thought too strongly about while I was in primary school, I guess no one does, even in the younger years of high school, but I started to think about going off to university. Now, I was pretty good at English, at modern history, ancient history, even study of society, that sort of thing at high school, and I actually got a pretty good enough OP, good enough to get accepted into a law degree, and that was my first option. I got admitted to a law degree at Griffith University and was going to go off and do that. It was actually… I think it was a double degree, a Bachelor of Laws and a Bachelor of Public Policy. So that’s what I was interested in doing, but the reality then had to be looked at, and the reality was that Mum and Dad didn’t have enough finances to support me leaving home, moving somewhere else, down to Brisbane and setting up shop, so I had to then make another decision based on what was the financial reality for the family.

George Christensen:

And so we had a very fledgling university in Mackay at that time. It was really a sub campus, a sort of an outpost of central Queensland University which was mainly based in Rockhampton at that stage but they offered first year courses in Mackay. And so I started my university studies there doing a combined Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Business degree. I eventually dropped off the business component of it and just focused on the Arts, but my major was in Journalism, although I did what we would call a minor in Sociology as well while I was there at university. So I went off to Rockhampton for three years to finish those studies and graduated. I looked, after I finished university, at actually going back and doing what I wanted, a law degree. I’ve got to say, I got two units in and then I pulled the pin because I was pretty much studied out at that stage, Malcolm.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah, I can understand that. But what I’m picking up from what you’re saying, between the lines, is that you’ve got a fascination with people. You want to understand what makes people tick. And I’ve noticed you are pretty incisive when it comes to seeing what’s going on. Just like Christine Dolan, my previous guest, I don’t know if you listened to her, but you can see what’s going on as some kind of instinct. Is that because of your early journalism?

George Christensen:

Well, look, I was always interested. I said that the subjects that I did well at, at high school, were the study of society, modern history in particular, ancient history a bit, and English. And there’s a common thread through those subjects. I mean, the study of events, the study of major ideas, the study of English language and literature, which forms those ideas. So I was very much interested in ideas, I got to say, and events that were going on that had a major relationship with those big ideas, and I still am today. So going into journalism I guess, there was somewhat of a step backwards, as there has to be. I mean, the young man that aspires to be an astronaut doesn’t immediately fly into space. He’s going to go through training. He’s going to learn to be a pilot. He’s going to do all those sorts of things.

George Christensen:

So stepping down and getting at the grassroots level and understanding what makes a local community tick through this newspaper I worked for, the Pioneer News, was very, very good grounding actually. I’ve got to say I didn’t work there for all that long because, and this is public knowledge although I don’t talk too much about it, at that stage I had a very, very strong feeling or urging, I can’t explain it, to explore the Catholic priesthood, and so I actually left my job to go to a seminary. I had gone on a trial basis for two weeks and then I came back, and then there was a decision to go back again that had to be made. And I pulled the pin right at the last minute on it, which left me sort of stranded because there I was, having quit my job thinking that I definitely was going to go down this track, and then at the last minute I decided, no, I’m not going to do it because there was numerous factors at play.

George Christensen:

My family were very much against it, and that also led me to reevaluating the decision, I guess, and those two factors combined led me to not pursue it. But that goes to another thing that’s a very strong part of me, and that is my belief in a higher power, in God, my belief fundamentally in the Christian faith. I don’t pretend to be a saint, Malcolm. I don’t pretend to be a saint. There’s been more blue words come out of my mouth than most sailors, right? So I’ve never pretended to be a saint, but I do have a very, very strong belief in Jesus Christ and in the Christian faith, so that has remained with me from then on. And it goes into part of my belief in bigger ideas. When you see the world through that particular worldview, that Christian worldview, you are interested in the ideas and ultimately you are interested in the battle between good and evil.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah. Could you expand on that? Because you know, good and bad are two words I try to avoid using, because what might be good for a farmer is rain, what might be good for a tourist operator is sunshine. But good and evil, and how do we express that in everyday language. Not everyday language, how do we see it in our communities? Because, you know, there are… Well, yeah, I’ll leave it to you.

George Christensen:

Well, that’s a really big question.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

It is.

George Christensen:

Look, there’s some things that are relative, right? Like what you said, rain might be good for a farmer, at the same time it might be bad for the guy who’s… I don’t know.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Running a tourism operation.

George Christensen:

A cricket aficionado or a tourism operation, or the person who’s just planned a family barbecue, so those things are relative. But look, I think that there are some things that are not relative. There is good. There is good in humanity, and what is good? Well, good is selflessness. Good is the service of others before yourself, without the want for reward. So that is good, I think, Malcolm. And we express that even, putting aside the Christian faith or any form of religion. What is the one thing that is sacrosanct in Australian culture, and the answer is it’s the Anzac spirit.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And mateship?

George Christensen:

Yes, yes. Mateship is almost fused with that sense of the Anzac spirit, because these were people who laid down their life for a greater cause and for their friend. And so that is the spirit of goodness I think, and it shines through actually in Australian culture. Not just Australian culture, but just an example of how that permeates our culture.

George Christensen:

Evil on the other hand, and I don’t want to get too much into this but you’ve asked me the question. I think that we know absolute evil when we confront it, and not everyone is confronted by it but we know it when we see it. It is a place that is completely and utterly void of that goodness.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

They’re taking a life.

George Christensen:

Taking a life.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Stealing.

George Christensen:

Yes. Anything that’s void of that selflessness, even small acts. And again, I don’t pretend to be a saint. Have I engaged in stuff that is wrong? Everyone has. There is not a single man or woman on the planet who hasn’t sort of walked at least a couple of steps into that darker side. There’s only one man who’s walked the planet who hasn’t I believe, and that is Jesus Christ. But absolute evil is another thing, and when you’re… So I speak to a lot of priests and other ministers of-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Can we… Can we-

George Christensen:

Yeah, yeah.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Take a short break there please, George-

George Christensen:

Yes.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And then come back with your point and continue. Because we need to have an ad break now, so let’s do it now.

George Christensen:

Let’s do it.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

I’ll be back with George Christensen in just a few minutes.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Welcome back. This is Senator Malcolm Roberts on TNT radio, today’s News Talk Radio, and I’ve got the pleasure of having George Christensen as my guest. Now, George, you were talking, in the middle of, about evil versus good, and you were about to talk about priests. Perhaps we could finish that and then get onto your new role, because you were a maker of laws as a member of parliament, and now you’re a reporter of news and politics. And more than anyone else, you go right down into the depth of things. I’d love to learn more about that, what drives you. So continue with where we were before with good versus evil.

George Christensen:

Well, I’ll end the sermon with this. I mean, I talk to a lot of, well not a lot, but a few different priests and other ministers of religion. I find they’re always good sounding boards for various discussions that I want to have, and some of them are very close friends. And so they talk about there being the difference, and I fundamentally believe this Malcolm, there is a difference between the evil that men do, although it is still evil and it is bereft of that goodness that we talk about, and what we would call absolute evil or the personification of evil.

George Christensen:

And what I’m talking about there is Satan, the devil. I fundamentally believe in that. Some Christians actually don’t, but I think that it does exist and we need to be wary about it. I mean, some people might call me crazy and a kook, but when we look at the world today and we see the zeitgeist, the spirit of the times that weaves its way in our culture, in our society, in our politics, in our economy, in terms of international happenings and institutions, I think that there is something gravely Satanic that’s actually going on in the world right now. I think that this spirit of personified evil has actually captured the world and it’s captured culture. Now-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Let’s continue talking about that. I’m sorry to interrupt you, but I wanted to… A good friend of mine who I’ve got a lot of respect for, he’s pretty switched on, he just sent me a text. He must be listening. He said pure evil is Klaus Schwab, and I think that’s where you’re going, isn’t it?

George Christensen:

Well, yeah. Look, the world economic forum. I just started reading Alex Jones’s new book, The Great Reset and the War on the World, and he speaks about it in these terms. It’s the battle for freedom, or the battle versus authoritarianism, and I think that they can be framed in good versus evil as well. Wanting everyone to be free and be able to pursue their own sense of happiness without infringing on the freedom of others, versus those who want to crush the fellow man and force them to do their will. I mean, that’s the battle of good versus evil, and I see that very strongly in the world today, and certainly out of the World Economic Forum. I wonder about the World Economic Forum. I spend a lot of time focusing on them and the ideas that are coming out through them.

George Christensen:

But I sometimes wonder Malcolm, and this is me speculating, whether it is just merely a front, because they’re so public in some of the things that they come out with, and some of the things are so bizarre. There’s either two things going on. One, it’s just front and we’re being obscured from something else that’s going on. Or two, and this may be the case, they have gotten so far with their agenda that they do not care anymore about hiding it. When you hear bizarre things coming out of the World Economic Forum, such as that they want to have fact checking for our thoughts. You know, the whole thing about transhumanism? When you start going down that rabbit hole, and this is stuff that the world economic forum publishes in their articles, says in their bloody globalist seminars and all the rest of it.

George Christensen:

They’re talking about the fusion of AI with the brain, and they can actually have blocking receptors, so that if there are things, ideas, images, anything, that really is something that goes against society as they see it, that can be blocked from entering the human mind. Just think about how frightening that idea is, how frightening that technology is, but how even more frightening that people would think about deploying it in such a way as the Davos crowd do. So clearly, clearly, that is a battle between good and evil.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Do you think George… I’ve always tended to think about the human spirit, the universal spirit, we’re of our universe. We’re not part of our universe, we’re of our universe, and so there’s a universal unity if you want. So rather than think in terms of good and evil, I tend to think in terms of our real self and our ego.

George Christensen:

Yes.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And you created Georgia, and I created Malcolm, and my ego is the thing that’s hurt me the most-

George Christensen:

True.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Because I can’t believe that I hurt me, but that ego is deliberately doing that so that I reinforce the ego. Because the ego is something I created, so while ever I have that false construct, then the ego survives. So I don’t know if I’m explaining it very well.

George Christensen:

No, you-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

So I tend to see things in terms of ego, ego versus our real self, our real self. And our real self would probably be akin to your good, your inherent goodness, the goodness of humanity, which I believe in very strongly. But then the ego takes over and the Adolf Hitler, the Klaus Schwabs, and they want to control. And always beneath control, there is fear, because that bloody ego is afraid it’ll get dissolved.

George Christensen:

Yes. I think we’re talking… We’re using different words, but I think fundamentally we’re talking about the same thing.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah.

George Christensen:

I’ve heard it said like this in probably more philosophical terms, there’s the logos and then there’s the, and I think this is made up word, the alogos. In the Christian parlance, we say Christ is the logos. I mean, in the beginning of John, the Gospel of John, in the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a God, or was God. So that, the Word, is actually in Greek, logos. And if you then take it out, I mean, we believe the logos is personified, it’s Jesus Christ. Take it away from that sort of Christian interpretation, what is logos? Logos is rationality. You talked about… I think it was, what did you say? There’s the universal spirit, is that how you described it? Is that your term?

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah, the unity of the universal spirit that is through all of us.

George Christensen:

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that what you’re talking about there is rationality, and it’s order but it’s divine order. It’s perfection, the way that the creator intended the entire universe to function. And then chaos breaks out, and this is the source of evil. It’s rebellion against what the divine order is. So whatever semantics you would like to use, I think that fundamentally we’re talking about the same thing. And I think that it just goes down to where we are at the moment. Look, I am not one who’s the defender of the status quo. The status quo is shocking, Malcolm. This is why it’s so easy when they talk about a great reset to capture some people, because people think that that life at the moment is completely crap. Yeah, it should be reset. The problem is it’s the people who’ve made life as bad as it is that are the ones wanting to do the reset, so do you think it’s going to get any better? The-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Bullseye.

George Christensen:

Yeah.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

You just hit the bullseye.

George Christensen:

I mean, it’s crazy. All the mega corporations, all the politicians, all the people who have been pulling the strings and calling the shots for decades, wanting to develop a new world. I mean, whose utopia is that going to be? Now, I get back to the good and evil concept, or logos and alogos. A natural state of things is capitalism, right? And let me expand upon that. Not capitalism as we know it. I think the word has been really… It’s almost passe because capitalism means something dirty to a lot of people, right? Let me use another word-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah, and just on that, George. I can’t resist jumping in. I don’t like cutting people off at times, but-

George Christensen:

Yeah, go on.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

We don’t have capitalism. So I’m-

George Christensen:

Yeah, that’s right. That’s right.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

We have crony capitalism, which is bastardised socialism really, heading on the way to communism. That’s what we’ve gotten, back to feudalism.

George Christensen:

I agree with you.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

We have not got capitalism. Perhaps we can talk about that later.

George Christensen:

Oh, look, that’s where I’m going, mate. That’s exactly where I’m going.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

But keep going. Keep going with your thread. I didn’t mean to…

George Christensen:

So, free enterprise, it is the natural order of things.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

That’s it, personal enterprise.

George Christensen:

Malcolm, you might be good at, I don’t know, pick a trade. You might be good at carpentry, right? And I might be good at bricklaying. I need a table and chairs built, and a bed built, and cabinets built. You can go and do that. Guess what? You need a house out of bricks made, so I can go and do that. And that is the true natural economy working. There’s a sense of that goodness I was speaking out about people helping each other, but there’s also reward. They help each other, they help themself, and the entirety of society flourishes in that system. We bring our talents to the table. We share those talents with others for their talents. We do that through a trade that’s eventually been worked out with money, and that is the natural order of things, not just economically, but also in a societal sense.

George Christensen:

So what these globalists are trying to do is to turn all that on its head. They want mega monolithic multinational corporations to be working hand in hand with technocratic governments, where there might be a facade of representational government but the reality is it will be government by experts. And I don’t say that in a polite way-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Technocrats?

George Christensen:

Technocrats. You know, the people who have been saying all the things about the pandemic over the last two years, all the things that we must do, that we’re ought not to do, that have turned out to be so badly wrong and have actually damaged people’s health and damaged the state of our society. These are the people who will be in charge, along with the mega corporations who will be, as they say, working hand in glove with governments to bring about change. Now, who elected them? How is that monolithic corporation bringing something to the table that I can trade with that actually helps better society? I don’t understand that. So it is fundamentally going away from the natural order of things.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Well, let me put a framework to you then. In capitalism, we have the individual ownership of assets and means of production.

George Christensen:

Yes.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And we have individual decisions in terms of allocating those resources. In communism, we have state ownership of the resources and the means of production, and state allocation. Socialism, in my… Just splitting the difference there, is individual ownership of the resources and means of production, but state allocation through regulation. And so we are very, very much into socialism right now. We’re not at capitalism. The other thing is that people think that capitalism is rampant, and it’s not. America’s not at all capitalist. It hasn’t been for a long, long time. And what we see is the need for these regulations to protect us George, from the capitalists. And the people who are making the regulations, or driving the law makers who are making regulations, are the ones who are trying to control things and they use regulation to control, and that’s put us into socialism.

George Christensen:

Yeah. True, true. Look, not every law that government brings out or regulation they bring out is bad. I mean, some of them are designed, and do keep some of these major corporations in check. But the problem is, right, when a regulation is brought in, you’ve got this multi billion dollar corporation which has a suite of people in middle management, lower middle management, upper middle management, all the rest of it. You’ve got these hoards of people in human resources and government relations and government regulatory departments who can actually do this work.

George Christensen:

All it requires sometimes is paperwork and ticking boxes, and they employ people that are very good at paperwork and ticking boxes. But the small business who that regulatory burden also falls upon is made up of Mum, Dad, and maybe a couple of young workers. Well, who’s going to be ticking all the boxes and filling in all the paperwork for them that it falls on as well? And so that’s why small business drowns in the paperwork, yet big corporations seem to flourish with it because they’ve just got all the people. So regulation in itself, when it falls on both big and small, actually works in favour of big business.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Oh, exactly. And I think George, that regulation is there for big business, because you look at the IR club. The fundamental responsibility in industrial relations, especially in a small business, in any business, is the workplace relationship between employer and employee. And if the employees want to organise themselves and get a bit more clout by having an honest union delegate, good luck to them. That’s their right. But what we see now in this country is the IR club, which comprises lawyers, consultants, HR practitioners, big business, multinationals quite often, trying to bulldoze their way through, union bosses in some large unions. We see these people clubbing together, and what they do is they make regulations so damn complex, so long, so detailed, that the honest worker cannot understand it, the honest business manager cannot understand it.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And so they have to go to lawyers. Hello, look, who’s making money. They have to go to union bosses who are feathering their nests and looking for their careers. They have to go to multinationals, and do a deal with them that favours multinationals. The whole thing is set up for this IR club, and the same happens with banks. You and I should be able to form a bank, but it’s so difficult because the regulations protect the major banks and give them control. The regulations are set up for the big controllers.

George Christensen:

Mate, while we’re talking about IR, can I ask you a question? You’re a Senator. I know it’s your show, but I’d be interested in your thoughts right now on this jobs and skills summit. I have mine, but I’m interested in your thoughts on it because that’s a hot topic at the moment.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

I haven’t given it a lot of thought, George, because quite frankly, look at the basics of it. Anthony Albanese came to the last election with a plan. He sold us. He told us. He had a plan. When the election was over and he was in power with 32% of the vote, he suddenly told us his plan was about going to ask people for their plans. He had no bloody plan. And the job summit is just a facade for the ACTU, big union bosses and big multinational players to organise the deals to suit themselves. It’ll be, yet again, another way of entrenching the IR club, the industrial relations club, and small businesses and workers will be left out. I mean, I don’t know if you know how much work we’ve been doing on Central Queensland and especially the Hunter Valley with regard to the exploitation of casuals. That’s an absolute disgrace that was enabled by union bosses and colluding with multinational companies.

George Christensen:

Big business. Yeah, yeah.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And I’m not talking about the mining companies. I’m talking about the labour hire people who are part of Recruit Holdings in Japan, the largest labour hire firm in the world through Chandler Macleod in Australia. And Chandler Macleod has received 2.4 billion dollars in the last four years, in the preceding four years, from the federal government for labour hire services. I mean, these people are all working together, and who pays for 40% less wages? The worker. Who pays for loss of worker’s compensation and basic security and entitlements? The worker. Who pays for the exploitation? The worker pays. And we’ve got big unions, union bosses, big multinationals, and big labour hire firms, colluding. Not all the labour hire firms, but just some of them. And this, they’re exploiting, George.

George Christensen:

They are. They clearly are.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

The job summit will perpetuate that.

George Christensen:

Look, I think it’s going to be even worse than that, Malcolm. And I’ll get off this, because I know this is not the topic you wanted to be discussing, but these are important right now.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

No, no, I’m here to listen to George Christensen. I want people to hear what you… Because you’re a good thinker. So go for it, whatever topic you want.

George Christensen:

There was an article in Macro Business the other day on jobs and skills summit, and often some of the stuff on Macro Business I disagree with, some that I agree, so it’s a bit of pick and choose. And this one had me nodding from go to whoa, and it was summed up with this thing, and I just can’t believe it because the unions were in charge of this jobs and skills summit, right?

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Excuse me, George.

George Christensen:

And they’ve been-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

I just realised the time-

George Christensen:

Oh, dear.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And I’m enjoying the conversation with you. Can we have another ad break and then come back with your story?

George Christensen:

Let’s do it.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah, okay.

George Christensen:

Let’s do it.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

We’ll be back. This is Senator Malcolm Roberts with George Christensen. We’ll be back in just a minute.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And this is Senator Malcolm Roberts on TNT News Radio, and I’m with George Christensen. And I’m going to ask George to continue with this story, but to make time, we’ve only got 12 minutes left George, and we’re covering a lot of good issues, I want you to make time please, in that, to tell us about your latest venture and how people can learn more about you, because that’s really important. You’re one of the most incisive commentators on public affairs in this country.

George Christensen:

Well, I’ll wrap up with this jobs and skills summit by just saying that the way that Macro Business has styled it, it says it’s been turned into one giant immigration scab grab that will see permanent and temporary migration lifted to one unprecedented levels against the direct wishes of the Australian people who have not gotten a say. And we saw that with the lift in nearly 200,000 migrants a year, and that’s going to happen. And there’s a lot of people who, I guess that they were aligned to the union movement or they were sympathetic to the union movement, that were calling out the previous government, the Morrison government, before the Turnbull, and before it the Abbott government, for foreign workers coming into the country. And they’re noticeably silent about this. It’s very, very bizarre. But Labour has long… This is why I fundamentally shook my…

George Christensen:

I shook my head every time Labour got up and started beating its chest on this issue. Because you’d remember Julia Gillard back in the day had a white paper into the Asian Century, and part of that white paper contained a lot of stuff about Labour mobility. And I’ll just read you one thing out of that white paper, then I’ll finish on this topic Malcolm, that this is what they say they want to do about the Australian economy and businesses operating and connecting with growing Asian markets, that they will work to reduce unnecessary impediments in Australia’s domestic regulations to cross border business activity, investment and skilled labour mobility, having regard to the arrangements in place in other countries in the region. So Labour was always about foreign workers coming in and doing jobs here in Australia that otherwise Australians could do, and I think that, that’s the tragedy of this whole thing. We are turning into, as some people suggest, a guest worker society. And I think that’s part of the globalist sort of ideology, the globalist utopia, there’d be no borders, workers could go wherever, do whatever.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah. There’s no doubt about that, because the two fundamental structures for human civilization are the family unit and the nation state, and the globalists have done years now of smashing the family. A good friend of mine, John McCrea, says that he calls the family law system and the family law courts the slaughter house of the nation, and it is destroying family. Because you know far better than I do George, when we destroy families, people turn to government, they’re controlled.

George Christensen:

That’s right. That’s right.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And when you smash national borders and you have the erosion of sovereignty, which is what is happening right now and has been for decades, and under both Liberal and Labour, then you have a central government with central control. Then you have all the benefits to them of labour mobilisation. This has all been orchestrated to smash borders, to move people around, to get control of people and turn us back into a feudal state, but in this case it would be a global feudal state.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

I’d love to have you back one day because you are wonderful when it comes to education, families and sovereignty, so let’s get you back one day to talk about that. But I’d like to hear for now about you. What are you doing and how can people learn more about you, and hopefully even use this service. And I say it openly, I’m promoting what you’re doing, because you are incisive and you’re honest and you’re considered, and you’re very, very thoughtful. You know what the hell’s going on.

George Christensen:

Well, when I made the decision to step down as the member for Dawson, I did so still knowing that there was a fair bit of fire in the belly and I didn’t want to leave politics. I was leaving the house of representatives, but not politics. And obviously I worked with One Nation, being a Senate candidate for One Nation, but that didn’t eventuate, although hopefully my role in that helped Senator Hansen who’s another warrior with yourself, Malcolm, in the Senate, helped her get over the line. I’m glad to see that she’s returned to the Parliament. But I decided to deploy my resources, which was in the field of journalism. I mean, I’d had that experience as a journalist and training as a journalist. I’d had over 10 years experience as a politician, so I decided to deploy those two evils for the forces of good.

George Christensen:

And I say that a bit facetiously mate, but what I’m trying to do now is put out… Well, what I am doing is putting out a daily newsletter, or Monday to Friday newsletter, that goes into issues where the mainstream media no doubt fears to tread. And all of next week, I’m talking about just a tiny little topic, the decline of Western civilization, and we’re going to be going through that pretty methodically, looking at democracy, looking at demography, looking at the decline in culture, looking at the decline in economics.

George Christensen:

So this is something I’m going to be focusing on next week. People can sign up for a free trial. They don’t have to pay to start with and they can leave whenever they want if they don’t like it. Nationfirst.substack.com. And so I just encourage people, you want to sign up for a free trial and read these pieces that we’re putting out next week on just the little topic of the fall of the west, please do that. I think that this is a topic that probably-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

So what’s that address again? Nationfirst-

George Christensen:

It’s nationfirst.substack.com. Nationfirst.substack-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Substack, S-

George Christensen:

Yeah.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

S-U-B-

George Christensen:

S-U-B-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

S-T-A-C-K.

George Christensen:

That’s it. That’s it.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Okay.

George Christensen:

I’m also working Malcolm, very briefly, on setting up a conservative or pro freedom news aggregator website for Australia. There’s plenty of them over in the US. They’ve got Citizen Free Press, the Liberty Daily, Populous Press, and once upon a time the Drudge Report used to be there, but now it’s gone over to the left. So I’m setting up one of these websites for Australia called Eureka Free Press, where we’re going to be trying to put the best of the best news and opinion that will really mean something and help in the fight that us pro freedom warriors have to engage in every day, because it is an informational war. So this is hoping to be one website that people can log onto daily, they can get everything that they need on there, they don’t have to go trawling the web because we’ve done that job for you.

George Christensen:

And there’ll also be some original news content on there as well, Malcolm, and I’m hoping to grow that, but I’m dipping my toe into this water to see how it goes. It’s cost me a bit already to get all of this set up. People have actually donated some money as well to help this venture get off the ground and I’m greatly appreciative for that. We’ll give it a go for six months and just see whether it’s at least breaking even and if there’s interest from the public, and if there is, then we’ll continue it on.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

I’ve heard you’re getting very good interest so far, and very good support.

George Christensen:

Yeah. Look mate, I actually shared a call for donations to lift the amount of original content that we could put on the website, and I got to say, we exceeded what we called for. So there obviously is a fair bit of interest in getting this out there and having original news pieces on there as well as aggregating the best of the best.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Well, I know George, correct me if I’m wrong, let’s have a quick little talk about the media and the different forms of media. We’ve got what I call the mockingbird media, the legacy media, the lying charlatan media, the lamestream media, the what some people call mainstream media.

George Christensen:

Legacy, fake news, yeah.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah, fake news. And they’re owned by the people who are pushing the global agenda, so they suppress any knowledge of it, so that’s one side. We can’t trust them. We know that for a fact, you cannot trust them. Then the next form of media that we have is social media, or as I call it these days, antisocial media, because we know that we have 142,000 followers on my Facebook page as Senator Malcolm Roberts, and sometimes our reach is pathetic because we are throttled back. We know that we’re getting throttled back.

George Christensen:

Yeah.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And it’s quite obvious, and then we have Instagram. But we can’t say things that we believe. We can’t say things that are the truth. We can’t say things that are backed by facts. We can’t say things that might upset the globalist agenda. So the globalists, Bill Gates for example is funding some of these people to suppress news of people like us, whether it be on climate, whether it be on COVID especially, these issues, basic issues of life and death for people, you can’t talk about.

George Christensen:

Yeah, it’s a disgrace.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah. And then the third one is what I call the new, independent, truth seeking, people media, and I would put you in that category. You’re reliant on people directly-

George Christensen:

And I would put TNT in it as well.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

I would put TNT. Wherever I go, I publicise tntradio.live. Wonderful service, maybe you’d talk about that in a minute too. But where do you see the media? Have I categorised the three different groups of media? Is there anyone I’ve missed?

George Christensen:

No, I think you’re spot on. We’ve got the legacy media. It’s called legacy because it’s fading, it’s dying. The advent of the internet, obviously I saw a long time ago that this would democratise the media, that if people were unhappy with the fake news that was being shoved down their throat, the bias and all the rest of it, they would vote with their feet. And so less and less people are watching the free to air commercial networks, less and less people are buying newspapers, and more and more people are getting their sources of news online.

George Christensen:

Now, the problem is that the mega corporations, Facebook, Google, and all the rest of it that want to return us into this feudal society, have picked up the ball for the legacy media and are doing their best to corral people into these silos where they’re basically getting the same stuff they got in the old media, but now online. Still, still, there are a bunch of different websites that are out there, and the movement is growing of being truly independent, truly pro freedom, and presenting the real news to the public. And I think that that is only going to grow and people are going to vote with their feet, Malcolm.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

But only… I think what we’ve got to do is vote with our wallets as well, and I’ve cancelled subscription to Sky News because it’s become fake news in the evenings now. It used to be socialist in the mornings and mid afternoons, and free enterprise in the evenings, but even now it’s woke. I look at them basically booting Alan Jones. I look at 2GB booting Jones.

George Christensen:

Yeah, that was terrible.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

I mean, he’s a beacon for truth and freedom, and he takes on the issues, COVID, climate change. He does a really good job on that because he talks the truth. I’d hate to get into an argument with him. He’s so well up… But I’ve cancelled my subscription to Sky-

George Christensen:

Well, he’s a clear example of the new media

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Sorry?

George Christensen:

He’s a clear example of the new media, ADHTV.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

Yeah.

George Christensen:

They’ve got the capacity, and I think they will go big and they will threaten some of these other channels. Because now you can just jump online, you can subscribe to this streaming media channel and you can watch it on your smart device or you can watch it on your smart TV, so that’s a democratisation of the media at play. They want to kick off Alan Jones. Well, people want to watch him, so they can still do it, and they can do it online and they can support a network that’s not engaging in that sort of behaviour.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

So we’ve got about a minute to go, so I just want to mention again, George Christensen, you can get his thoughts directly on nationfirst@substack.com. Correct, George?

George Christensen:

Nationfirst.substack.com, and you’ll get them via email. Not directly, I’m not going into some transhumanist-

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

No, no. I mean, they’re not being filtered by a whole posse of journalists. They’re your thoughts directly, your incisive comments about, and your incisive news.

George Christensen:

Yes, that’s right. Nationfirst.substack.com.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

And perhaps you could come back one day and we’d talk about education, because you’re very strong on that, talk about families and talk about sovereignty. Because they’re the core, they’re the keys stopping us sliding back into global feudalism.

George Christensen:

You’re very right, education being one of the most important because that’s the next generation.

Senator Malcolm Roberts:

George Christensen, thank you so much, and thank you for what you have done and what you are doing for the people of Australia in educating and opening eyes and hearts. Thank you so much.

George Christensen:

Likewise, Senator Malcolm Roberts. Thanks very much.

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Labor’s Job Summit scores as a big flop

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The Jobs Summit last week was a wasted opportunity. A key decision from the Albanese government was to increase the immigration cap to 195,000 new immigrants a year. When there aren’t enough jobs for Australians right now how is importing another 195,000 hopeful employees going to help?

Transcript

President, two minutes is more than enough to review Labor’s Jobs and Skills Summit.

Allowing pensioners and student visa holders to earn more WILL help small businesses in the city and in the bush.

This has been One Nation policy for some time.

$40 billion in development funding through to 2030. $5 billion a year sounds good until we realise private investment spending in Australia in 2022/23 alone will be $143 billion.

$5 billion is a drop in the bucket. Just enough to provide the Labor with endless media photo ops.

This was the best opportunity in years to talk about growing our employment base – mining, agriculture, manufacturing, value adding. Creating breadwinner jobs.

Opportunity NOT taken.

25% of the delegates, one quarter, were union bosses. Yet there was no tangible job creation that may benefit union members. No wonder Red Unions are booming.

What did come out of the summit?

1.      Additional vocational training places, for jobs that don’t exist;

2.      Preferential employment schemes for women and Aboriginals, for jobs that don’t exist;

3.      195,000 new migrants every year, for jobs that don’t exist.

How will our crumbling health care system provide for all these new arrivals?

Victoria is treating patients in tents and Queensland in the back of ambulances.

Where will the housing come from? 100,000 Australians are homeless and that rate is rising. Rental prices are up 18% this year alone.

Inflation is 6% on the way to 10%. Life for everyday Australians is getting very hard, very quickly.

Labor will make all of these things worse with increased immigration adding more pressure on health and housing, while diluting the power of workers. That will reduce workers’ wages and living conditions even further.

Just who are Labor working for?

We have One flag. We are One Community. And One Nation is now the workers’ party.

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Letter to Dan Repacholi – Stand up for workers

This letter was sent on 27 July 2022. As of 31 August no reply has been received.

Dear Mr Repacholi

Congratulations on your election to the Australian House of Representatives.

You have been elected to represent the people and workers of the Hunter and in that regard, I ask that you please read my attached letters addressed to your predecessor Mr Joel Fitzgibbon, in which I detail significant abuses of Hunter Valley miners.  Similar letters were sent to the Hunter CFMEU union boss at the time, Mr Peter Jordan.

It is deeply disappointing that neither Joel, nor your party, nor Hunter CFMEU union bosses prevented or rectified the abuses to Simon Turner and many other Hunter casual coal miners.

Among the many severe injustices on which we have fought for Hunter casual coal miners are the following:

  • Loss of basic mineworkers’ compensation for workers injured at BHP’s Mount Arthur Mine and which CFMEU union bosses are aware, yet have done nothing;
  • Loss of miners’ Accident Pay;
  • Employer/mine-owner threats to injured workers to not report serious injuries;
  • Culture of mine management and management “safety bonuses” that threatens casual coal miners who speak up on safety issues;
  • Non-reporting of injuries including serious injuries;
  • Underpayment of up to 40% to casual mineworkers compared with permanent workers alongside casuals on the same roster and doing the same job;
  • Coal LSL under accrual and underpayment for casual miners;
  • Loss of miners’ basic entitlements and protections and the illegal employment of casuals on production under the Black Coal Mine Industry Award;
  • Gaps in the Black Coal Mine Industry Award that left casuals vulnerable and unprotected by the Fair Work Ombudsman; and,
  • Work, health and safety authorities and insurers ignoring injured casuals.

There have been many injustices done to casual mine workers on mine sites in the Hunter and across Australia.  Employers and Hunter CFMEU union bosses continue to exploit and ignore these miners. Labor has misrepresented these miners’ plight in what seems to be an attempt to protect Hunter CFMEU union bosses responsible for donations to your party’s election campaigns.

When Labor and the union bosses ignored miners’ pleas for help to restore basic employment protections and entitlements, we stepped in.  Our One Nation team have been supporting and working for casual workers since July 2019 to restore miners’ entitlements and protections.

Now that you are the Hunter’s voice in Canberra, please consider these facts:

  • CFMEU union bosses set up Hunter labour-hire companies enabling and perpetuating the permanent casual rort.
  • CFMEU union bosses negotiated and signed off on the abusive casual enterprise agreements.
  • Labor’s Jeff Drayton admits he did a deal in 2017 allowing casuals to be terminated with one hour’s notice and gave no entitlement to annual leave, carer’s leave or paid compassionate leave: Daily Telegraph May 2021.
  • The CFMMEU National Legal Director courageously publicly confirmed the union ignored casuals.
  • Mine royalties and mining jobs subsidise our way of life, the schools, the hospitals and the lifestyle that both city and country Australians enjoy.

Labor’s coal and industrial relations policies, actions and omissions are undermining workers and the Hunter.  One Nation has continued to support and fight hard for casual workers’ rights including introducing legislation for equal (or greater) pay for casuals.  Please refer to the attached. 

You are accountable for what happens next or does not happen for the ignored injured coal miners and to jobs and families in the Hunter.

Labor must honour your election campaign promises to Hunter miners and not do deals with the Greens who want to shut down the coal industry. 

I am writing to your Minister for Industrial Relations, the Hon Tony Burke, seeking his support for the Fair Work Ombudsman to conduct an inquiry into the use and abuse of casual mineworkers in the Hunter.  The previous government promised One Nation such an inquiry.  I hope that you will publicly support such an inquiry as a matter of urgency.

I would be happy to meet with you to discuss what needs to be done to further the successes we have achieved for casual coal miners everywhere and to fulfil my aims stated in 2019 to:

  • Restore to workers their legal and moral entitlements and protections and to obtain compensation for the trauma miners have endured;
  • Stop exploitation of permanent ”casual” coal mine workers across Australia; and
  • Obtain justice for Hunter casual miners in light of the collusion between BHP, Chandler MacLeod and the Hunter CFMEU union bosses.

I hope that you and Labor will support my Bill introduced into the Senate earlier this year and re-introduced in the Senate yesterday, and that you will support my call for an independent inquiry.  I look forward to the possibility of meeting with you.

Yours sincerely

Malcolm Roberts

Senator for Queensland

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Media Release: One Nation advances equal pay for equal work

One Nation’s Equal Pay for Equal Work Bill 2022 ensures the rate of pay for casual labour hire workers are the same as or better than full time workers doing the same job.

Senator Roberts said, “The exploitation of casual workers stops here and now, and my Equal Pay for Equal Work Bill will ensure casual workers are remunerated fairly.

“Companies need to re-invest in traineeships and apprenticeships for their future labour requirements, rather than contracting casual positions on lower wages.”

My Bill applies to the Black Coal Mining Industry Award 2010 and the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award 2020, both of which have a history of claiming flexibility requirements but undercutting wages.

This Bill will include the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation Enterprise Award 2016, the Fire Fighting Industry Award 2020, the Maritime Offshore Oil and Gas Award 2020 and the Seagoing Industry Award 2020.

Senator Roberts said, “While some of these industries do not have a history of casualisation, they all inherently need to maintain high and consistent standards of safety using a stable workforce.”

One Nation accepts the need for casuals to cover sudden spikes in labour demand.

Senator Roberts said, “We need to make sure casual workers are just that, a short-term requirement to address business demands, and that employers in these specific industries shift their perspective to an investment in longer term workforce planning and permanent employment.

“The overuse of casualisation has driven down wages, making it a struggle for a sole breadwinner to provide for their families.”

One Nation has achieved many positive changes for casual workers in the black coal mining industry, along with introducing casual to permanent conversion rights and protecting small business from red tape when implementing casual conversion. “This Bill is award-based and allows for wage negotiation between the employee, union and employer, which is an investment in the employer and employee relationship,” added Senator Roberts.

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One Nation introduces Equal pay for Equal work Labour hire bill

Companies have been using labour hire contracts to cut wages and benefits for workers. Our One Nation ‘Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022’ will put an end to this unfair abuse.

Transcript

In the last Senate week I introduced my bill to make sure workers employed under labour hire contracts are paid the same rate of pay as workers who are employed directly in certain awards, including the black coal Mining Industry Award and the Aircraft cabin crew award. You know, breadwinner jobs used to be able to provide for a family on one wage and still buy a home, a car and have holidays.

Labour hire contracts are one of the devices that large corporations are now using to drive down wages in industries that have traditionally provided breadwinner jobs. My bill, this bill, will help to bring a better life for Australian workers. Coal mining is in my blood. I started work as a coalface minor for three years underground, including in the Hunter, before progressing to mine management.

The exploitation I have seen lately in the coal mining industry is an absolute disgrace. This bill is the product of work I’ve been doing for years with Hunter Valley coal miners and Queensland coal miners.

One Nation was instrumental in achieving positive change to the Fair Work Act in 2021, including protections for casual workers and casual conversion rights for workers: casual to permanent, improvements to work health and safety incident reporting, proper payment of workers compensation, proper payment of accident pay, proper leave and freedom of speech for casuals who are threatened with the sack if they speak up about saefty.

Labour hire contracts have been exploiting workers for years and the CMFEU Union bosses, the mine owners and the Labor Party and the liberal national governments in New South Wales and Canberra have done nothing about it, and they don’t want to do anything about it. Union bosses do very well, very nicely out of these labour hire contracts.

The One Nation, Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022, will put an end to this unfair abuse. With our previous work and this Bill, One Nation is now the party of the workers.

And stay tuned we’ve got a lot more coming.

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Christians silenced in WA and Defence Suicide Royal Commission – 2SM with Marcus Paul

I talked to Marcus Paul on Thursday about the current inquiry into casuals in the workforce, the WA government’s shocking move to ban the Australian Christian Lobby from a state-owned venue and progress on the Defence Suicide Royal Commission.

Transcript

[Marcus] With a smile on his noggin, is Malcolm Roberts, One Nation Senator, hello mate.

[Malcolm] G’day, Marcus, how are you?

[Marcus] All right, well you saved a little bit of face up there on the Gold Coast last night.

[Malcolm] Yeah, I didn’t get to watch it because I’m calling from Bowen right now, and last night I was addressing the Chamber of Commerce, we had a fabulous night.

[Marcus] Okay.

[Malcolm] Bowen’s the place with the world’s best mangoes, but I saw the result this morning.

[Marcus] Yeah, and Bowen, I remember it well in my travels up in north Queensland, gorgeous spot, and you’re right, that’s where the world’s best mangoes come from.

[Malcolm] Bowen’s specials mate, absolutely unbeatable.

[Marcus] All right, tell me about this inquiry into security of work at the focus of course, on the casualization of our workforce. What’s happening here?

[Malcolm] Well mate, you know that I’ve been, really pushing hard on this issue for coal miners in the Hunter Valley and in central Queensland, and initially even Labour ridiculed me and just said, no this is nonsense, it’s not happening. I think some of the Labour MPs were trying to cover it up. But it’s now come out after two years of pushing this issue, it’s now come out into the open, and Labour and Liberals, sorry, Labour and the Cross bench, and the Greens have got together and we’ve got this inquiry up, sponsored by Senator Sheldon, and we’re looking into it. They’re taking the gloves off and getting right into it. And, but what I’m doing now is that I’m broadening it because job security, which is what this is all about, is not just about casuals, it’s about industry security because the Labour and Greens’ policies are ending coal mining, and it’s also about personal security because I’ve been shocked, as I’ve shared with you quite openly over the last few months.

[Marcus] Yeah.

[Malcolm] That people’s safety is really jeopardised and people have been crippled, and just tossed on the scrap heap with no workers’ compensation. That kind of stuff has got to end and state and federal governments are at fault, and we’ve really got to shake things up. And I’ve been very critical of the Hunter Valley CFMEU, and I remain so.

[Marcus] Yep.

[Malcolm] They have abandoned workers, completely, they’ve enabled enterprise agreements that have sold workers out. But I want to compliment the CFMEU construction division, because I read their submission into this inquiry, and it is first-class, comprehensive. And what was very disappointing was, yesterday, we did it, we asked questions of various organisations on Tuesday when I was in Rocky. And then yesterday, I had to stop at Marlborough in the bush and ask questions of the mining companies and labour hire companies. They were evasive mate. They just don’t get to the point, ’cause I think all along this whole issue has been, how do we cut miner’s wages? That’s what it’s all about.

[Marcus] Labour hire companies, essentially cut real wages, I don’t care how anybody tries to spin it, that’s exactly what happens. You and I both know it, and it’s high time that we do something about it. Tell me what’s up.

[Malcolm] Some of the companies mate, are actually giving people an introduction to mining. There’s some very good labour hire companies around.

[Marcus] Yeah, but I don’t agree with them.

[Malcolm] But some of them, they’re just ripping people off. I mean how did you get a mining company employing its own people, and then paying a commission to a labour hire firm for hiring other people? Unless you cut mining wages. You can’t give them a profit on top of miner’s wages, so they cut miner’s wages. That’s what’s going on, but there are some good ones.

[Marcus] Yeah well, maybe I might just disagree with these sorts of labour hire companies anyway, because eventually, it comes down to first and foremost how much money the labour hire company can make and workers, who are the ones putting in all the hard yards are always those that seem to lose out. Anyway, let’s put that aside now.

[Malcolm] Well, what it also shows Marcus, is that some of these mining companies, don’t understand that safety is not a cost, safety actually saves money and increases production. They also don’t seem to understand that if you pay people doing the same job, different rates of pay.

[Marcus] Of course.

[Malcolm] Then you’re gonna create animosity, it hurts morale, hurts safety, hurts commitment. That hurts productivity. It doesn’t make sense.

[Marcus] Yeah, it’s not just in the mining sector, labour hire companies hire people in factories across Southwestern Sydney and I can tell you some stories and I will one day that’ll make your toes curl. I mean, they just are ripping off workers.

[Malcolm] Yes.

[Marcus] All right, WA, let’s move over to Western Australia. I see the government there is upset. The Australian Christian Lobby, they’ve cancelled an event hire at the convention centre. The ACL had hired the convention centre, and the Labour state government cancelled the booking. Why?

[Malcolm] Well, apparently some gay and trans activists complained, and so the Labour government said, no, you can’t have that event. After they’d already signed up the Australian Christian Lobby to have that event in their convention centre, and also at one of the towns south of Perth. But Martyn Iles has been doing a fabulous job, I attended his presentation in Brisbane, it was first-class, really getting done. I think he calls it “The Truth of It.” And he’s doing a really good job, and what McGowan’s government, in the Labour of government in WA, I think they’re afraid of what he’s doing, and they’re just trying to shut him down. But really, it’s getting like Nazi Germany and China. It ends religious freedom. These people went out as a legitimate, everyday organisation and booked a venue, and then they’d been cancelled. So, this is just an end of free speech in our country. That’s what Labour is doing in Western Australia.

[Marcus] All right, well, the ACL, I’m certainly no fans of theirs, I think they’re a little too far right in some of their views, but look, they certainly do have a right in this country to assembly and get together and discuss issues that are of concern to them. So, I find it very odd and you’re right, I tend to agree, why are we shutting down conversation? That doesn’t sound very democratic to me.

[Malcolm] No, and that’s a form of control, and Marcus, you know I’ve said it many times, wherever there is control, beneath control there is fear. The Labour government in WA is afraid of these people speaking up. There are a lot of Christians, good solid Christians in WA, and they’re shutting them down. That’s not right.

[Marcus] All right, of course we know that the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide has been set up, we’ve got an interim report due in August of next year, a final report, not until 2023. We certainly do need to do more to support our veterans.

[Malcolm] Yes, it’s something that Pauline and I have been pushing for quite a while, but I must give compliments and appreciation to Jacqui Lambie who has been pushing this Royal Commission for quite a while now.

[Marcus] Yep.

[Malcolm] And it’s not just in the veterans, it’s also in the defence suicide, and they wanna look at systemic issues and common themes around suicide, contemplation of suicide, and feelings of suicide, you’ve given a date, and I encourage all veterans and current members of the defence force, who have a point to make, to contact the Commission and make a submission, and then see if you can become a witness before the Royal Commission, it’s really important. I’ve said it before, we have a fabulous armed forces in terms of the commitment of these people, over 100 years. And what it is, is that we actually send them, we bend them, but we don’t mend them. And that’s where we’ve gotta do a better job of looking after people, when I think the Romans first noticed that, you know, what’s that a couple of thousand years ago. When a man is sent to war and he comes back, he’s a different person. We’ve gotta acknowledge that and look after these people.

[Marcus] All right mate, good to have you on, we’ll chat again next week.

[Malcolm] All right mate, thanks.

[Marcus] Take care. One Nation Senator Malcolm Roberts.

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Small Businesses are the backbone of the country

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Small Business is the largest employer but suffers the most hardship in trying to comply with the weight of so much complex regulation. Small business is the key to getting Australia out of the mess it is in.

Let mum and dad business thrive and so will the country.

Transcript

Thank you. Thank you, Chair.

Senator Roberts.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you, Chair. Thank you Mr. Billson and your staff for coming.

Thank you.

[Malcolm Roberts] Small business, we know is Australia’s largest employer. It’s the engine room of our economy. The previous small business ombudsman in a report said, “A tax system that works for small business,” that was the title of the report, in February 2021 at page six, recommendation 21 stated “that the government must undertake tax reform to prohibit the ATO from charging penalties and interest issuing garnishee notices or instigating other recovery action on tax arising from a decision that is disputed”. We support this change as the ATO’s current policy could kill many struggling small businesses and it’s not fair. It’s completely unjust. On May 13th 2021, the Honourable Stuart Robert, MP, Minister for Employment Workforce Skills, Small and Family Business said in parliament that the government too would back small business over the ATO. The message is clear, in your new role as ombudsman, will you be advocating for this tax reform? And if so, what are you doing?

Yes, and yes, we are advocating for a very thoughtful use of the enormous powers the tax office has.

[Malcolm Roberts] They are enormous.

They are very substantial.

[Malcolm Roberts] They make laws basically.

Well, I mean the thing is we’ve been consistent on three fronts, Senator, one is they’ve got quite a lot of discretion about how they use it. So we’ve been trying to put a spotlight on how that discretion is exercised so that it’s consistent and thoughtful. Deputy Commissioner, Deb Jenkins, and I meet regularly about our experience with tax office interactions. I think you might’ve missed my absolutely, gripping opening remarks where I did touch on some of these issues, Senator, where we’ve had punitive penalties of 200% for late payments. Well, sorry, payments of superannuation guaranteed contributions being made in a timely way but not processed in a timely way. And that can trigger a liability. The tax office is saying to us they form a position of these are the rules. We’ve not got a lot of wiggle room with those 200% penalties. They’re now reflecting on that and dialling back that a little bit and putting more discretion that’s less punitive into their decision-making. Secondly, there’s a measure been recently announced that an aggrieved taxpayer can, seeking a decision from the AAT, can actually ask the AAT to direct the tax office to suspend recovery actions. So that you’d know well, if they judged that we were liable for a tax amount they can pursue the recovery of it even though it’s disputed. And in some cases we’ve heard that can limit the aggrieved taxpayer’s capacity to argue their own case. So we think-

[Malcolm Roberts] And to stay in business.

That’s right and so we welcome that announcement, we thought that’s a good step in the right direction. There’s also scope for me to come to our office. So if there’s a dispute a small business has with the tax office our concierge service can do three things. One, if we think it’s really odd, we can suggest to the tax office, they might want ever another look at this because we think they’ve perhaps made an error. Secondly, there is a mechanism to get fresh eyes review within the tax office so that someone else can have a look at the assessment to see where that judgement –

[Malcolm Roberts] That is a fundamental problem because the assessor can sometimes be the reviewer of the assessment.

And we were wary about how effective that measure was going to be. It was trialled initially. But the feedback we got was overwhelmingly positive from the small businesses that used it, even those that didn’t get the outcome that they wanted. So we were very, in that tax report that you’re referring to, we were urging for that to be maintained as a permanent service. So that’s there-

[Malcolm Roberts] So you’re advocating for structural change in that way?

And really a thoughtfulness around the way the tax office uses those awesome powers that it has. We surface case studies and think you know, maybe this could have been handled a bit better. Deputy Commissioner Deb Jenkins is a wonderful ally. I think the Inspector General of Taxation is doing some good work as well around understanding the nature of the tax debt. It’s often said small businesses is a big tax debt problem. Well, in total numbers, it’s a big number, but it’s spread across an awful lot of small businesses. And then there’s an awful lot more that are paying, that are fulfilling their obligations in a very timely way and that should be celebrated as well. The last one Senator is the idea of this AAT review. So we offer as part of that service and it was touched on earlier that $1.4 million administered funds we can have an aggrieved small business tax payer come to us, say they’re not happy. Say why they’re not happy. We will collate relevant material, suggest to them, maybe they might be misreading the tea leaves or we might suggest to the tax office they might’ve misread their obligations, see if we can get an outcome. That doesn’t happen, we may support and arrange a review by a tax expert, there’s about 20 around the country that we might refer, or refer that small business tax payer to where they can give an assessment of their prospects of success at the AAT. And then we may also provide a role in assisting that small business tax payer at the AAT, if they decide to proceed to that point of challenge.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. That’s a comprehensive reply. And I know one expert who’s dealt with tax and small business for many, many years, and also the next topic I’m gonna get onto, he estimates that the $25 billion that small business owes to the ATO comprises 60% penalty and 40% principal and interest. And of course the penalty builds on that interest. So it’s huge.

And I think there’s an Inspector General report coming out on that very matter to break up the client group tax debt and then there’s some interest in what the components are like what you described. So I’d encourage you to keep an eye out for that report, Senator, that is also a gripping read.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. I just mentioned the topic of my second, my second question is, what can be done to reduce industrial relations complexity for small business? The tax, sorry, the Fair Work Act is about that thick, when it’s printed out on piecec of paper, that’s horrendous for any small business employee any small business employer to get their head around it. And we need to restore the employer-employee relationship, surely.

Yeah, it’s difficult for many small businesses who want to do the right thing to know precisely what that is. I did point earlier to Senator O’Neill’s question around small business measures in the budget. One of the reg tech measures is to actually try and help small businesses navigate the award system. There’s also an advice line for small businesses that aren’t a member of an industry association. They’re not of a size where they’ve got an HR professional that they can get some advice. Our agency has also put out a report about simplification and for the purposes of full disclosure, Senator, I actually authored a report for the Fair Work Commissioner judge, his Honour Justice Ian Ross, about practical steps I thought could be taken within the current law as it is to make the system work better for smaller employers.

[Malcolm Roberts] Could we get a copy of that?

Yeah, That also is a good read,

[Malcolm Roberts] If you could send that on notice.

and I will make sure you receive that.

[Malcolm Roberts] Send that on notice? That addresses my next question, which is that, what better ways are there for small business that are not limited just to simply developing a small business award? That’d be one thing on the list, I’m sure. But are they contained in your list?

Yeah, there was, yes, it didn’t actually advocate for small business award.

[Malcolm Roberts] What are the measures?

It actually advocated for a small business annexure to each award. That was basically the essential elements that a smaller employer needed to turn their mind to. And it made some recommendations around the effectiveness of the fair dismissal code. It did speak to the formation of a small business division within the Fair Work Commission so that their procedures are right sized and relevant to small employers. It also called out the impact of the club. Dare I say, industry associations, the legal profession and unions that actually revel in the complexity, it makes their insights and expertise very valuable.

[Malcolm Roberts] And the employer industry groups? You’ve got the people who benefit from problems and no solutions.

Well, it did point out that they probably are less concerned about complexity whereas a small business owner and leader, he or she can create a great innovation and change the very nature of society and then needs to get help to understand what their workplace obligations are because it’s so complex, it’s so nuanced, it was putting the point forward that very intelligent small business owners shouldn’t need to rely on external advice to be surefooted in their compliance with their employment obligations.

[Malcolm Roberts] Well, let’s take care of my next question. Are there still gaps between your office and the Fair Work Ombudsman that need to be improved? For example, small business support?

Well, they’re doing more and I’ve met with the Fair Work Ombudsman. We had a panel of regulators, Senator, was a cold night in Canberra and I’m sure we took an enormous amount of the audience away from Home and Away when we were talking about regulatory challenge, it was just a real cahoot, Senator, but we were working quite collaboratively. They’ve got some good resources. One of the things we can do is amplify and give higher visibility to those resources and also work carefully with them. They have their own small business helpline. I actually launched it in a former life. So I’m quite familiar with the need for good advice but we also thought there was some structural opportunities at the Fair Work Commission that could work alongside the Fair Work Ombudsman and make the system work better for smaller employers.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, next one is a specific around some of the broader areas you’ve been talking about. Do you get feedback from small business that the Fair Work system is too expensive for small businesses? For example, not just the complexity and the cost that entails and the distraction out of the business but paying “go away” money because they’re too busy to defend claims. For example, those kinds of things?

Yeah-

[Malcolm Roberts] And employees on the same note?

They tend not to come directly to us, but when we’re out on the road, Senator, it is a vivid topic for those that have been through it.

[Malcolm Roberts] And applies to employees, not just small business employers.

That’s correct, and one of the things that we were highlighting in our work is that the award system and the power imbalance assumes that the employer has got enormous resources and capability and the employee hasn’t. In many small businesses, it actually can be the reverse, say an employee with the support of an advisor or a representative, perhaps a union that can take cases and to appeal over and over again, probably has more horsepower and resources than the small business will ever have. And that was one of the recommendations we sought to address in my report, not the agency’s, but the report I provided his Honour Justice Ian Ross.

[Malcolm Roberts] Could you just recap, I think Senator Brockman asked this similar question, what are the main issues facing small business and what are you doing to sort these out? I know you mentioned bank loans, some find it difficult to get insurance?

Well, access to finance remains a big issue, Insurance remains a big issue as Senator Hume was alluding to, the focus on digital engagement is very important that we see a spotty level of engagement. I would hazard a guess that a significant minority are less open to the delicious possibilities that deeper digital engagement can offer. They may have been of my vintage, sir, where there were vendors promising the world when I had more hair that tech would change my business and it didn’t. And we often hear about that and those people now at a more mature age still in the economy might be hesitant to take up some of the digital engagement opportunities that are there. So that’s a big issue. For us, we still think government procurement offers great potential for greater small business engagement. And we think that’s a key priority for us. Women’s entrepreneurship, it’s also an area where we’re quite interested in and I’m also quite evangelical about alternative dispute resolution. It’s interesting in Australia a lot of small businesses turn to the regulator to defend their own economic interest because they’re frightened of cost order gorillas if they pursue legal recourse, they’re just worried. So they turn to the regulator. This is quite unusual in other comparable jurisdictions the people whose economic interest has been infringed upon are very up and about defending their own interests and are less reliant on the regulator. We think there might be something in that where the way the court system operates power imbalances may well be amplified throughout the legal process, me as a small business, you as a behemoth business owner, you’ve got five QCs, I’ve got my solicitor and we’re having a discussion and you’re reminding me that if I lose I get to pay for your crew. That can be a real disincentive to engage in that court based process. We think we can probably come up with some better avenues. That’s a priority for us as well.

[Malcolm Roberts] What about tax? Not just personal tax, but business tax and especially the complexity of the tax system?

We put a report out, when was that? May I consult the Deputy’s Ombudsman who was here when I wasn’t, sir?

February.

February, that just rolled off. It’s quite fresh, Senator. I can make sure we refer that inquiry report to you as well. And your winter reading list in Canberra will be abundant, sir.

[Malcolm Roberts] Thank you. Based upon your experience, although it’s only limited for a few months, should the role or powers of the Small Business Ombudsman be enhanced and if so, in what regard?

Yeah, we think there’s some scope for having more nudge ability to get disputing parties around a mediation table and potentially into arbitration to get matters sorted out quickly so that businesses can get back to business-

[Malcolm Roberts] What sort of power would that look like?

Well, at the moment, whilst we carry the title of Ombudsman we have no determinative power. We can’t decide anything. All we can do is facilitate and enable a process and put the parties together and give them wise advice, we hope, that they see it’s in everyone’s interest to sort it out quickly. Where there’s some few areas where we think a little bit of nudge potential might encourage those parties to engage in good faith and get those disputes resolved quickly, affordably and get business back to business.

[Malcolm Roberts] Since the last round of Senate estimates, which is what three months ago? Has there been any work done to identify opportunities for small business including red tape reduction and other initiatives, business codes, would it like to be reviewed and updated to ensure fairness for employers and employees?

Yes, we’ve engaged on a couple of reviews that other portfolios are doing. We’ve also been active on mutual skills recognition across jurisdictions, which was a measure included in the budget, so that if you’re a trades person in one state, you could readily apply your trade in another and have your qualifications carried over. We’ve also had some discussions with industry associations about their pain points, particularly where they might be multi-jurisdictional. Some examples, sir, may include, well you’ve seen we’ve been active in the Australia post area, where they felt complex and diferring state regulation was the reason for them to announce that they intended to discontinue perishable goods delivery. And we said, well, don’t discontinue it, let’s work out what these regulatory challenges are that you speak of. And so we’re engaged in that process as well. Areas of-

[Malcolm Roberts] A review of the business Fair Dismissal Code from both an employer and employee perspective to make it fairer for both?

That was a recommendation in our report.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay, thank you

Actually, to make it function as it was intended, might be a more accurate description.

[Malcolm Roberts] Which protects both parties?

Yes.

[Malcolm Roberts] Employers and employees. Has the Small Business Ombudsman had the opportunity to engage in the development and review of regulation and information guidelines for small business in relation to casual conversion? That’s the conversion of casual employees to permanent employment?

No sir, we haven’t.

[Malcolm Roberts] Are you aware of the casual conversion guidelines?

Vividly so sir.

[Malcolm Roberts] Are they fit for purpose?

Well, there’s some positive response from small businesses that there’s now clarity around that, there was some chagrin that other reforms could perhaps have been included in that legislation that works. That’s the feedback we’ve had.

[Malcolm Roberts] So you’re passing that on?

Well, anyone who asks us, we’re not shy, Senator, we will pass on our feedback.

[Malcolm Roberts] To the Fair Work Commission?

Yeah, at that stage we haven’t engaged with them on that topic. The last discussion we had with the Fair Work Commission was at an officer level just on things they’re doing to streamline their processes, to make them more accessible for small businesses.

[Malcolm Roberts] They’re responsible, no it’s the Fair Work Ombudsman that’s responsible for the casual conversion guidelines-

The commission set the rules and the ombudsmans make sure that they’re being implemented.

[Malcolm Roberts] You had discussions with the Fair Work Ombudsman,

Only in terms of their guidance material they make available. Yeah, but not on that particular topic you asked, to be very specifically about

[Malcolm Roberts] Will you be having that?

casual conversion. I can add that to my list, ’cause I catch, We, I think I even chair a federal regulator agency group meeting where we all get together and work out who’s doing what?

[Malcolm Roberts] So you’re the Ombudsman’s Ombudsman.

I am, I think I’m the passionate but neutral chair amongst powerful regulators, sir.

[Malcolm Roberts] Okay. One final question, Chair, we’ve now got the term circuit breaker instead of lockdown.

[Mr. Billson] Yes.

[Malcolm Roberts] Which to me and others seems to be an attempt to bypass the growing resentment towards lockdowns. And they’ve belted small business now for about one of the quarter years. Not for the whole time, but intermittently along that time. A taxi operator, a taxi driver in Sydney on Friday, when I went home from Canberra, said to me that it’s not only belted his business on Friday the sudden shutdown in Victoria but it’s affected coffee shops, restaurant owners, hotels motels, a whole swath of businesses all with no advanced warning

I talked about this in my opening remarks, Senator, that they’re not-

No, they were there and it did point to the fact that that was a circuit breaker lockdown which created probably some expectation to be short but now the discussion is it might be longer. My point to the committee was it, in my view, it highlighted the need for greater certainty and predictability for business about what different types of lockdowns would trigger in terms of support and other measures that business could count on. Because at the moment there’s not a clear menu, there’s not a clear set of trigger points where people go, okay we’re now having one of those lockdowns, call it what you will, but we know the suite of measures that accompany that, that would give small businesses good clarity and it would also identify who’s expected to do what when these events occur, and that’s not just government, I mean, at what point does the conversation move to what’s the finance sector doing to accommodate these businesses, all the issues around leasing, that was all part of it and I’m from Victoria, Senator, and to be here in person, I didn’t go home, because I wouldn’t be allowed back but that’s the sort of thing that we think would be most helpful.

[Malcolm Roberts] And then we see, just listening driving home one evening, listening to Talkback Radio, which in Brisbane sometimes carries the feed from Sydney, And there was a Sydney sider saying, okay we get the hundred dollar voucher for travel to Cairns, stay in Cairns, but why the hell would I go to Cairns and risk two weeks in a lockdown afterwards at 3000 bucks just to save a hundred dollars. I mean those kinds of things and WA, Queensland and Victoria in particular have been capricious with these lockdowns and are you getting much resentment from the small business on that?

Yeah, absolutely, we are. I mean, they’re infuriated and bewildered by what is sensed to be inconsistencies across jurisdictions, proportionality to responses, why some jurisdictions treat certain events that look to a small business owner’s eyes as very similar as somewhere else, and that’s treated differently. That’s not surefooted conditions for a business owner to navigate and that’s why some improved predictability about trigger points and what sort of support they can count on would be, I think, a very positive step as we learn to live with COVID.

[Malcolm Roberts] The Chair is giving me the signal to wind up so-

I think he’s giving me the signal Senator, so I will.

It’s a general signal,

In my general direction.

[Malcolm Roberts] United Nations… Just a final comment, The United Nations World Health Organisation which I happen to think is a dishonest, corrupt and incompetent organisation –

Can I take that as a comment, Senator?

[Malcolm Roberts] Yes, even, and you don’t have to give your opinion. Even the world Health Organisation has said that lock downs are meant to be used as a last resort initially only just to get control of the virus. Does small business look upon the use of lock downs as an inability of the states to get control of the virus, so the virus is essentially managing the state economy rather than the state managing the virus?

Senator you’re leading me, and I might let that one just go through to the keeper okay?

[Chair] I think we need to treat that one as a comment. Thank you, Senator Roberts.

Chair, can I just use that though cheekily to flag that the United Nations Micro, Small and Medium Enterprise Day of Recognition is coming up in June. So that would be a great opportunity to say thank you to the small businesses and family enterprises you count on. That would be a good thing coming out of the UN. And I might hand back to you, Chair.

Mr. Billson, I don’t think anyone would be left with any doubt about your passion for the small business sector and your suitability for the role. Thank you very much for appearing for the first time, I’m sure it’s not the last, we will see you again in a few months very likely.

Thank you, Chair, thank you Senators.

And thank you very much for your time, and I wish you all safe travels back to wherever you are heading. Thank you.

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