Minister Dodges Accountability as Border Force Grapples with Safety Concerns

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At the recent Senate Estimates, I inquired with Border Force officials about what was needed to ensure the safety of Australians.  True to form, Minister Watt attempted to shift blame onto the previous government. He mentioned measures like monitoring and curfews, but refused to accept responsibility for detainee-related crimes, and failed to offer a reasonable solution. 

When asked about the government’s legislation regarding the re-detention of dangerous detainees, departmental representatives explained that it was a high bar to meet before requests could be put before a court seeking an Order.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Would you agree, Mr Outram and Ms Holben, that it’s a difficult issue? It’s a challenging issue. You’ve got safety considerations. You’ve got legal considerations—all the things you mentioned a minute ago, Mr Outram. It’s not easy.

Mr Outram: Running borders is challenging.

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, it is, and it’s a fundamental duty of the federal government to keep our borders secure. To make it clearer and easier for us and safer for people, what are your greatest issues? What are the core
issues that you need to have addressed by the government?

Mr Outram: That’s a very wide-ranging question. I could talk for a very long time. Our functions fall into three areas, I suppose. One is the customs function that we undertake, which is of course about collection of duty revenue, management of and administration of the Customs Act, and ensuring that prohibited goods don’t get brought across our border.

Senator ROBERTS: I mean in relation to keeping people safe in this country and keeping our border secure. What do you need on this issue that we have been talking about at length for hours now?

Mr Outram: Preventing prohibited goods from coming in across our border keeps our country safe. So I’d say—

Senator ROBERTS: On this issue—

Mr Outram: the management of cargo is a big area for us. We have, as I said in my opening statement, a 70 per cent projected increase in cargo over the next ten years.

Senator ROBERTS: With respect, I’m trying to help you on this issue, which is about the safety of the citizens of this country and about dealing with hardened criminals, murderers, rapists and domestic violence offenders. I’d like to know: what are your biggest cost components? You’ve talked about surveillance. You’ve talked about so many different measures that you’ve had to do—’unprecedented’. Senator Ghosh was getting at a good point. But what do you need from us or what do you need from the government to fix this?

Mr Outram: As I said earlier on, our budget is sitting at unprecedented levels. There’s a lot of work going on behind the scenes in relation to our civil maritime capabilities. We’re working very closely with Defence and looking at how we put those capabilities on a more sustainable footing going forwards into the future. That will be really important.

Senator ROBERTS: You said that you have to comply with the law. I’m pleased to hear you say that. You said that you’ve got to do it within the legal regime you’ve got. What legal regime would you prefer? What fine-
tuning would you need?

Mr Outram: That’s really a policy question.

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, what do these people need to solve this problem?

Senator Watt: What was the question?

Senator ROBERTS: We’ve talked about unprecedented cost levels and unprecedented risks. What do we need to solve the problem?

Senator Watt: Sorry, what is the problem that you’re talking about?

Senator ROBERTS: Safety of people, keeping these murderers and other criminals in the country at the moment—how do we get rid of them? How do we protect people’s safety?

Senator Watt: What the government has been trying to do is to keep the Australian people safe. That’s why there are a range of cases that have had their visas cancelled with a view to deportation. Those people have been kept in detention during that time. As a result of a High Court decision and other legal decisions, the government’s attempt to keep these people in detention or deport them has been overturned. What we’ve done is follow the law, comply with the law, which I would hope that you would agree is needed, but we do it in a way that maximises the safety of the Australian people by putting into place—

Senator ROBERTS: We’ve also got—

Senator Watt: Hang on, can I just finish—by putting into place an unprecedented system of protection with electronic monitoring and curfews. We just heard in response to those questions from Senator Ghosh that, in the time Mr Dutton was the home affairs minister, it would appear that dozens of murderers, sex offenders and other offenders were released from detention without a single skerrick of protection like what this government is putting in place. There was not one electronic bracelet nor one curfew, and yet Mr Dutton and his cohorts are out there claiming that this government is not protecting the Australian people when we’re doing more than Mr Dutton ever did as the minister.

Senator ROBERTS: Will Minister Giles rescind directive 99? Will he stop people claiming to be Aboriginal connected to overturn a deportation order, failing character tests? Will directive 99—

Senator Watt: Senator Roberts, I think the chair has been clear that we’ve dealt with direction 99.

Senator ROBERTS: Let’s move on then. Why has Labor not applied to redetain noncitizens who pose an unacceptable risk to the community in the last six months since Labor passed legislation specifically aimed at
doing just that? Why have you not redetained people?

Senator Watt: I think Ms Sharp addressed that prior to the lunch break, but she might be willing to give you a summarised version of that again.

Ms Sharp: Certainly, Senator. As I was saying prior to lunch, the Community Safety Order scheme is modelled on the High Risk Terrorist Offenders Scheme. Applications under it need to be made to the court and need to be accompanied by a very substantial set of evidence. The evidence needs to go to all information known to the Commonwealth for why the order should be granted, and also all information known to the Commonwealth for why the order should not be granted. That requires an extensive review of records held by government agencies across the Commonwealth, and the states and territories, followed by the receipt of expert evidence that looks at the risk profile of the individual. That expert evidence is gained through individual assessments, one-on-one with psychiatrists et cetera, to really form up whether we have a reasonable case to demonstrate to the court that the only way to protect the community from a high risk of the person committing a serious, violent or sexual offence is detention. It’s a very high legal bar to cross.

Senator ROBERTS: Let’s move on to the recent Palestinian refugees from Gaza given fast-track visas. Why were they given special treatment, where some visas were said to be given with only an hour of scrutiny and
processing? An hour?

Chair: Senator Roberts, officials will probably dispute the assumptions made in your question. I won’t put myself on the other side of the table, but we did have extensive questioning on that earlier—it does relate to
outcome 2 as well.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Given that 80 per cent of Palestinians support the inhuman terrorist Hamas regime in Gaza, how can these Palestinians be shown not to be a danger to Australians in such a short time?

Chair: Senator Roberts, that relates to outcome 2. Apart from being divisive language, it’s probably not an appropriate question in parliament—

Senator ROBERTS: Last question—when will Palestine be declared a country of concern so that high-risk applicants from Palestine are not able to be considered for a visa?

Senator Watt: I’m not actually even sure if that’s possible, given that Palestine is not a nation.

Senator ROBERTS: So you have to have a nation before you can—

Senator Watt: I don’t know, I’m guessing that’s the way it works, but officials might know better than me.

Senator Reynolds: Yes—

Senator Watt: I’m doing my best to assist the committee, Senator Reynolds!

Chair: Yes.

Senator ROBERTS: Okay, thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.

Chair: Thank you, Senator Roberts. Senator Paterson.

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World Leading Steel Producers Eager for Iron Boomerang to Begin

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In July 2022, I was successful in having the Senate conduct an inquiry into the ‘Iron Boomerang’ project. This project aims to build steel mills in Abbott Point Townsville and Port Headland, connecting iron ore from the west with coal from Queensland to manufacture Australian steel of superior quality at a more competitive price compared to other steel producers.

World leading steel producers are eager to construct these mills at their own expense, recognising the undeniable financial and quality advantages of the project. Yet, governments have stood in the way of approvals since the project was first raised in the 1980s.

Now for the first time, all relevant governments needed to approve the project are from the same party, removing the political obstacles that have hindered progress so far.

One Nation has been advocating for this project since 2016 and Minister Ayr’s responses to my inquiries today were encouraging. I appreciate the Minister’s comprehensive understanding of the project and wholeheartedly agree with the numerous benefits it offers.

I look forward to this project receiving approval.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing tonight. Recommendation 2 of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Committee inquiry report into the project known as Iron Boomerang reads: The committee recommends the Australian Government commissions and publishes a scoping study on the establishment of a steel plant/s located in Northern Australia. This relates to the proposal for steel plants at Abbot Point near Townsville and Port Hedland in Western Australia with a railway line or ships being used to exchange iron ore and coal backwards and forwards to make the world’s highest quality steel prices that undercut China by at least 10 per cent. This project will generate hundreds of billions of dollars per year in steel and associated products, many fine by-products, and create tens of thousands of breadwinner jobs. The project proponents have advised they have the funding to build this project from leading infrastructure world funds already. This project does not need public money. The land at Abbot Point is already zoned for a steel mill. Minister, my question is, will you call this inquiry and ensure our future really is made in Australia?  

Senator Ayres: I’m advised that the government is considering its response to this inquiry. I can say further that of course iron ore is one of Australia’s largest commodity exports. We have a very capable mining sector, and we also have adjacent to our mining sector vast solar and wind reserves. The Future Made in Australia agenda is looking at value adding in iron and steel, across a range of our critical mineral categories. It offers very significant opportunities for investment in precisely the kind of industrial capability that you are referring to here. I don’t know anything about the actual proponents of these particular facilities, but in the broad, in metals processing Australia has a significant future comparative advantage. This government wants to make sure that we secure that comparative advantage and that investment, I’m sure.  

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, I’m not sure if you’re aware of it, but this project as it stands will significantly—I don’t believe it’s necessary to reduce carbon dioxide from human activity, but you do and the government does. This project as it stands, with the use of conventional rail, conventional ships, will dramatically reduce the carbon dioxide from human activity because there will be no empty backloading. There will be no oneway transport of coal or iron ore, which are currently exported in massive quantities from this country. Instead, they’ll just be shuffled across the country in a very limited transport regime and back load so that there will always be a load.  

Senator Ayres: Much broader than that is our advantage in solar and wind with 97 per cent of our trading partners, including our trading partners in energy and steel production. Think of markets in Korea and Japan. There are very significant opportunities for Australia in both economic development terms and also, as you point to, in emissions reductions terms, to make a significant contribution to the emissions reductions by our partners by producing onshore in a cleaner way than our trading partners do. This is a very significant national interest question for Australia, and the government is working hard to secure future investments in this area. 

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Minister Deflects Questions on Contaminated Blood

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During questioning of the National Blood Authority at last week’s Senate Estimates, I raised the issue of Canada and the UK accepting responsibility for deliberately covering up the exposure of individuals to contaminated blood products from blood transfusions from the 1970’s onwards. I asked the Minister if Australia was going to follow suit and provide compensation, however the Minister appeared disinterested and took most of my questions on notice.

I also raised concerns from constituents who were concerned that blood is not being screened for spike proteins and is sourced from vaccinated individuals, potentially spreading the spike protein widely within the community, including those who had opted not to be vaccinated. The Minister simply replied that there was no evidence to support this statement yet.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: When will government hold a royal commission into the infected blood scandal in Australia, Minister?  

Senator McCarthy: I will take that question on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: When will financial assistance be provided to victims still living with their contaminated blood caused illnesses?  

Senator McCarthy: I’ll take that question on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: When will an apology be made to the victims of this scandal?  

Senator McCarthy: I’ll take your question on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware the Canadian government has recognised the disaster of contaminated blood and has compensated victims since 1994?  

Senator McCarthy: I’m not going to answer that question.  

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware that a major report into infected blood in the UK has just released its findings confirming the epic scandal and cover-up by the UK government that had provided previously negligible support for victims? They knew about it and they kept doing it—infected blood. Are you aware of that?  

Senator McCarthy: I’ll take your question on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: When will the Commonwealth Serum Laboratory and the Red Cross be held accountable for their actions in knowingly transfusing contaminated blood products into people, killing and disabling many Australians?  

Senator McCarthy: I reject the premise of your question, but I will certainly follow up on many of the other matters that you’ve raised.  

Senator ROBERTS: Specifically, when will they be held accountable? What other support will be offered to these victims?  

CHAIR: Is that question to the minister or Mr Cahill, who’s at the table?  

Senator ROBERTS: To the minister.  

Senator McCarthy: I think I’ve answered question.  

Senator ROBERTS: What other support will be offered to these victims?  

Senator McCarthy: Ms Shakespeare will answer your question. Ms Shakespeare: I wanted to mention the support that’s been provided to people who’ve acquired hepatitis C, in the form of the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme listing of highly effective, highly curative antiviral medication since 2016. They’re available to anybody who has hepatitis C, including those who acquired it through the blood system.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is there screening being done to ensure unvaccinated people—this is COVID vaccinations—is being used in transfusible blood products? I haven’t had a COVID injection and I’m not going to get any. If I want to go in for a blood transfusion, can I get unvaccinated blood?  

Mr Cahill: Senator, as you would know, Australian Red Cross Lifeblood collects the blood, processes the blood and distributes the blood. As far as I’m aware, they don’t do any tests for vaccinations. The testing processes are regulated by the TGA, and there’s no test for vaccinations, as far as I’m aware.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. What is the risk that mRNA based vaccines are ending up in transfusable blood products, starting another cycle of contaminated blood being transfused?  

Mr Cahill: I think we’ve probably dealt with that question a few times previously, at different hearings and also on notice. There’s no evidence globally that vaccine COVID is transmitted through blood transfusions.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’m more worried about the spike protein. That’s what my constituents are asking me about.  

Mr Cahill: I think those questions have been asked previously and answered.  

Senator ROBERTS: Technology is changing quite a bit and quite rapidly, and the understanding of COVID mRNA injections is rapidly changing. When will this government stand up and be counted and take responsibility for the security of blood supply and blood quality?  

Mr Cahill: All Australian governments contribute funding to the national blood arrangements. In 2024-25 the contribution being made by governments to that is approaching $1.9 billion—for 2024-25—so that’s a significant investment in the safe, secure, affordable supply of blood and blood products. 

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COVID Jab Injury Compensation Scheme Scam Exposed

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I confronted government with the story of a woman who has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars after being vaccine injured. The payout under the scheme was just a measly $4,000 when the claimant could show she’d clearly lost a 100 times more than that. Government mandated the jab, coerced millions more into getting it and now won’t compensate people for life-changing injuries.

It’s why the COVID Royal Commission must also investigate the injury compensation scheme to get to the truth of why big-pharma bureaucrats are being allowed to deny victims their rightful compensation.

Transcript | Part 1

Senator ROBERTS: I’ve just got one question really. It is made up of components. Could I table this document? It’s a matter from a constituent.  

CHAIR: You can circulate it. The committee will have to consider it before it’s tabled.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I want to ask about a particular deed of settlement that you have offered— vaccine claim—offered under the COVID-19 Vaccine Claims Scheme. A woman has been in contact with my office and she has given me permission to talk about her case. She has written a letter summarising what is going on. It is redacted to remove personal identification. I want to be able to table the summary she has made of the impact the injury has had on her life. All of the identifying details have been redacted. So I’ll table the summary. I’ll also provide your internal reference number, that’s ARN6176-1Z-CV. To summarise, she was diagnosed with myocarditis and chronic fatigue after getting the injection. It has completely changed her life. It has completely ruined her ability to work as a lawyer with very high earning potential. It has practically made her bedridden for 17 months. And all you’ve offered her is $4,000. She has paid far more than that in medical bills and lost potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in potential earnings. Yet, in your assessment, you’ve provided zero dollars for lost income in the past and zero dollars for lost income in the future—zero. This is an open-and-shut case of injuries flowing from the COVID-19 injections. She was a well-credentialled person with high earning potential and all you have offered her is crumbs when she can show she has lost nearly $400,000. How can you be so heartless? And how can you make an assessment of zero lost income, past or future, when she has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars? She’s quoting cardiologists, and it has all been proven to be due to the COVID injections.  

CHAIR: Sorry, Senator ROBERTS, what was the question you are posing—and to whom.  

Senator ROBERTS: How can you be so heartless and how can you make an assessment of zero lost income, past or future, when she has lost hundreds of thousands of dollars?  

CHAIR: The question is regarding the assessment?  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes.  

Ms Faichney: So the question is regarding the amount that has been provided?  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, it is. And how did you come to that amount?  

CHAIR: How that amount was determined, I believe.  

Senator ROBERTS: And is it structural—embedded—in the COVID claims scheme?  

Ms Faichney: The agency administers the vaccine claims scheme, as you know, on behalf of the Department of Health and Aged Care, which sets the policy, including the parameters around which the payment is calculated. It is based on a range of factors, including the impact on the individual and what they can demonstrate. The figure itself will be a result of those calculations. It doesn’t necessarily go to a person’s lost income; that’s my understanding.  

Senator ROBERTS: So what does it cover?  

Mr Moon: Principally, the scheme covers out-of-pocket expenses.  

Senator ROBERTS: Those haven’t even been met.  

Mr Moon: I couldn’t talk about individual cases. What I can say is that there are a few different parts to the process. The first part of the process is a prima facie assessment of eligibility to the scheme. Services Australia staff would assess things such as confirming that the person has received a vaccine and confirming that there is some manner of out-of-pocket expense. There is a secondary process with our tier 2 and 3 claims and optional with their tier 1 claims, where a medical expert may be referred to have a look at the claim, to have a look at other factors, where our staff don’t have the specialist expertise or where it’s not our role. There is a third part of the process for tier 2 and 3 claims where there is loss over $20,000 or where someone has passed away—where it goes for legal counsel advice as well. I can talk a little bit more, if it’s helpful, about the process.  

Senator ROBERTS: What I’d like to know is why she isn’t being compensated. It’s a vaccine injury compensation scheme. It’s not compensating her for her lost income, her future lost income or even her medical expenses to date. What is it covering for this woman? She’s lost her livelihood.  

Ms Faichney: All we can say is exactly what we’ve already iterated, which is that the policy itself is set by the Department of Health and Aged Care, and our officers will apply that policy. If the individual is concerned with the result of their claim, they are able to request a review of the decision. If there is additional information that possibly hasn’t been taken into account, we can certainly look to provide that.  

Senator ROBERTS: If we take this woman’s story, it looks like what you’re doing is running a cover-up scheme that has no interest in compensating people for what they actually have lost after a COVID injection. That’s being blunt, and I can’t come to any other conclusion.  

CHAIR: Senator ROBERTS, this is a process of questions and answers. If you are seeking to put a question to the officials, I’ll allow you to do that.  

Senator ROBERTS: Where do I go next? Where does this woman go next?  

Ms Faichney: I think the department of health is up in the next couple of days. You could raise commentary there. You’ve given us the claim, and we can certainly have a look, but I would suggest that the individual would need to advise the agency if they would like to have a review of the decision.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. 

Transcript | Correction of Previous Statement

CHAIR: The committee will now resume. I will be passing the call to the opposition and then Senator Roberts.  

Mr Hazlehurst: If it’s okay, with your permission, we just wanted to correct one thing from the earlier evidence that was given.  

CHAIR: Of course.  

Ms Faichney: My comments in response to Senator Roberts, in reflecting on them, I think, just to remove all doubt and to be very clear about what losses can be compensated under the COVID-19 Vaccine Claims Scheme: the scheme can provide compensation for various past and future losses, including out-of-pocket expenses, lost earnings, care services, and pain and suffering.  

CHAIR: Thank you very much. 

Transcript | Part 2

Senator ROBERTS: I want to return to my earlier line of questioning. In answers to my previous questions about that correspondence with a constituent who had been given $4,000 in response to a vaccine injury claim, you said, ‘The department of health sets the parameters for the scheme.’ Is that correct?  

Ms Faichney: The policy is set by the Department of Health and Aged Care.  

Senator ROBERTS: So Services Australia assesses against those parameters. Is that correct?  

Mr Moon: Yes.  

Ms Faichney: We assess against the policy, yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: The claim comes in, and you look at the parameters and the policy settings set by the department of health. Who looks at the evidence and makes a determination?  

Ms Faichney: We have a number of panels that we refer to. I think we’ve had this conversation in estimates previously—that our officers in the agency will do an initial assessment as to base eligibility. They will do their first assessment as to whether it’s a vaccine that’s recognised and whether the damage or the injury being claimed is consistent with what the policy says can be claimed for that one. They will double-check that it’s not a person who might be known for doing fraudulent things. They’ll do all that base stuff to begin with and say, ‘Okay, this looks like a claim that we will now process in the system and keep going.’  

Senator ROBERTS: So it’s now acceptable to look into the medical or whatever—  

Ms Faichney: That’s right. Depending on what tier they’re claiming or where they’re going, we may engage medical experts, which tend to be through the TGA or through the department of health. Then, depending also on what they’re asking—  

Senator ROBERTS: Excuse me. Did you say ‘medical experts through the TGA’?  

Ms Faichney: Yes—or the department of health, yes. Then, depending on what they’re also requesting, we may send it on for legal advice as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: So it depends on the nature of the claim.  

Ms Faichney: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: For Services Australia internal reference number—I gave it to you before—ARN6176- 1Z-CV, there is a deed-of-settlement line item stipulating loss of income. Why would a value of nil against income loss be assessed when she lost close to $400,000?  

Ms Faichney: We would not discuss the specifics of cases regarding what the claim is that they’ve put forward. We can talk about the outcome. They’ve obviously been assessed and found to have out-of-pocket losses of $4,000, based on the comment you made earlier as to the amount.  

Senator ROBERTS: If it meets your parameters or guidelines set by the department of health, is income loss a factor that’s considered?  

Mr Moon: Yes.  

Ms Faichney: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: Are expenses and reimbursement considered?  

Mr Moon: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is projected future income loss considered?  

Mr Moon: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: So you can’t discuss this with me now—and I understand that—but how can this person have a review of the ruling?  

Mr Moon: There’s a process that I understand is outlined in the correspondence with all claimants that outlines people’s review and appeal rights.  

Senator ROBERTS: How would someone with $400,000 in documented losses be assessed and given $4,000?  

Mr Moon: It would be difficult to comment on that without going into individual cases.  

Senator ROBERTS: Is there any way we can intervene in it?  

Mr Moon: Senator, we will always look into anything that’s raised with us in estimates or through correspondence.  

Senator ROBERTS: Okay. Thank you very much. 

Tabled Document | Outline of Events from Vaccine Injured Constituent

TabledDocDownload
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“Catching up on immigration” Lie Exposed

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There are 500,000 more temporary visa holders (migrants) in the country than before COVID. That’s an extra 200,000 homes needed just to cater for those arrivals.

Whenever I ask government about their flood of immigration, they claim we’re “just catching up” after the COVID lull. The reality is, temporary visa holders in the country has gone from 2.3 million to 2.8 million.

That’s not a catch up – that’s a new record. While the Treasury Secretary claims they got immigration forecasts wrong by 24%, I cover in a separate video that they actually got it wrong by 120%.

Cutting immigration isn’t enough. We need to start telling temporary visa holders to leave. We won’t get cheaper rent and cheaper houses until this is done.

Only One Nation has the guts to do it and put Australians first.

Transcript

CHAIR: Senator ROBERTS 

Senator ROBERTS: My questions are to do with immigration numbers. I want to know whether Treasury got it wrong or if the government isn’t telling us the truth, basically. I’m not going to ask you to decide! Right up and down our coast—and we’ve got a very long coastline in Queensland—we’ve got thousands of people without houses. We’ve got working families going home to their car to sleep. And we’re a wealthy state. There is a statement that has often been made by the government in relation to its high immigration—that we’re just catching up. Pre-COVID, the number of temporary visa holders in the country was roughly 2.3 million. It’s now at 2.8 million. That is 500,000 more people in the country. A lot of them will need a house. We haven’t just caught up; there is a record number of temporary visa holders in the country, isn’t there?  

Dr Kennedy: I did some numbers in my opening statement. They’re a little different to yours, but, certainly, the current number was similar. The earlier number that you cited was a bit lower. I’ll find it in a moment. But it has been the case that Treasury significantly underestimated the recovery in temporary visa holders—I pointed that out in my opening statement—in the order of nearly 25 per cent. That is, frankly, poor performance on our behalf. We simply underestimated how many students would flow back into our universities and our higher education sector more broadly, and students were the most significant part of that increase. I just want to add that it’s an incredibly important sector, generating—I possibly won’t have the number quite right—over $8 billion, from memory, in export services. I’ll confirm that number for you. On the question ‘did Treasury get the numbers wrong?’ yes. Temporary migration recovered from the pandemic much more rapidly than we anticipated. It was predominately driven by students. The other thing that’s happened is that they came for the first year of their course and now will stay for three years. Normally we’d have a pattern of the first years coming and the fourth years leaving. We haven’t got that at the moment because they left during COVID. So we’ve got this quite substantial inflow. And, overall, the numbers as you described have comfortably recovered the levels that we were at pre the pandemic.  

Senator ROBERTS: And exceeded. 

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Small Businesses Ripped Off by Loan Sharks

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Reports indicate loan sharks are ripping off small businesses, charging them up to 140% interest on loans through a number of loopholes on our regulations. The contracts are often impossible to understand and leave mum and dad shops struggling to keep their head above water.

I asked the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman (ASBFEO) about this wave of dodgy activity and to see what he was hearing in complaints from businesses.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing. Firstly, I want to thank you for always being a very clear and articulate advocate for the small businesses in this country. Without them, this country dies. I think many people forget that. Is the ombudsman aware of the recent ABC coverage of small businesses who have suffered when entering business loans?  

Mr Billson: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: Are you able to elaborate on some of the key protections that are afforded to consumer borrowers under the National Consumer Credit Protection Act?

Mr Billson: I was a bit worried that after your opening sentence there’d be a ‘however’—thankfully, not.  

Senator ROBERTS: No. There’s no ‘however’.  

Mr Billson: A lot of small business borrowings aren’t covered by those consumer protections. There is a set of arrangements about diligence and a capacity to repay. To put it simply, a lot of small businesses borrow with the aim to change their circumstances, whereas the consumer framework looks at capacity to service. Having said that, there are then codes that sit around it—the banking code—and there’s a code subcommittee particularly focused on small and agribusiness lending. AFCA is involved as well, where the lender has agreed to be bound by the AFCA scheme, so where a dispute or a grievance arises they can go to AFCA.  

Senator ROBERTS: This is consumer?  

Mr Billson: No, this is specifically about small business. And then we deal with what I call fringe financiers. There are quite a number of financiers who are outside the AFCA framework that can behave quite appallingly, and we try and seek a resolution to those circumstances, mindful we have no powers to direct a particular outcome. 

Senator ROBERTS: Which of the key protections that are afforded to consumer borrowers are not available to small business borrowers?  

Mr Billson: There’s the responsible lending provision—capital ‘r’, capital ‘l’—where there’s a duty to look at expenditure patterns and the like for consumers. Those things aren’t expressly required of lenders to a small business. Some apply a similar framework. There are certain diligence expectations, and then there are safeguards and protections captured by the banking code.  

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware of small business borrowers paying effective interest rates up to 140 per cent?  

Mr Billson: We are aware of some examples. We’ve had other examples where punitive penalties have been applied. We’ve even had examples where some borrowers have approached a broker to look at finance options, not proceeded with the arrangement and then the broker’s introduced them to a lender that’s had quite extraordinary terms and conditions, and, even though they haven’t proceeded with that interest in accessing finance, the financier has then said, ‘Here’s a several thousand dollar bill you can pay, and if you don’t pay that, we’ll put a caveat on your home.’ Some of that outrageous conduct, we raised through FRAG, the Federal Regulatory Agency Group—a group that I chair, looking at various regulators and what can be done about these things for those people that sit outside things like the AFCA scheme and aren’t responsive to the banking code and other safeguards. 

Senator ROBERTS: Are you aware of small businesses taking out high-interest business loans because of tax debts? Can you comment on that? 

Mr Billson: I saw reports of that. If I could check with Ms Collins—I don’t believe we’ve had any particular cases of that character, but we are aware of reports of it. We are also aware that a number of small businesses are feeling very distressed about the return to more regular tax debt recovery activities by the ATO. We also work closely with the Small Business Debt Helpline. Interestingly, 30 per cent of the small businesses seeking help from the Small Business Debt Helpline have been in business for more than 10 years, so there’s something happening, and it’s some of the headwinds I pointed to in my opening remarks, which I understand are being circulated. 

Senator ROBERTS: In your experience in assisting small businesses, can you offer a view on what would be the consequences for small-business borrowers if the National Consumer Credit Protection Act were extended to cover small-business loans? 

Mr Billson: My concern would be that it may further limit access to credit at a time when too many small businesses already explain that they have difficulty accessing the finance that they need. Finance is the oxygen of enterprise, and if we make it too hard to get, the consequence is that we constrain that economic activity. A number of other mechanisms provide some safeguards—the Australian Banking Association has lodged a proposal for a revised banking code. We’re very active in trying to make sure that has appropriate safeguards in it for small-business borrowers. The other part of our concern is about lenders who operate outside those more established channels, and that’s more often the type of matter that’s raised with our organisation.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, I appreciate your succinctness. 

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Government Doesn’t Care if Subcontractors are Ripped Off!

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It appears the government takes the position that if a subcontractor gets ripped off by a company engaged by a government agency, it’s not their problem. I’ve been asking the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation (ANSTO) about a particular historical case where a subcontractor was ripped off by a construction company on their project and can’t get compensation. If their response is that it’s a matter for the construction company, even if that company rips off their subcontractors, it wouldn’t be a good enough response.

Transcript

CHAIR: Senator Smith, Senator Roberts is committee hopping. To assist him with that—I’ll give you the call, Senator Roberts, if you’re ready to go.  

Senator ROBERTS: Yes, I am. Thank you, Chair. Thank you for being here tonight. I’d like to return to the historical case of Garners Plumbing. I appreciate that I’m going back a while here to question on notice BI-52 from November 2022. I appreciate the detail you gave in your answer to that question. As a reminder, ANSTO engaged Watpac for the design and construction of your nuclear medicine production facility. Watpac subcontracted Garners Plumbing for hydraulic and plumbing works. There were variations to the scope of work to make it compliant with standards, but Garners Plumbing has never been able to get compensation for those variations, in large part because the failure of Watpac to pay in the first place put them in a precarious position. Your answer is that because you didn’t have a contract with Garners—you only had a contract with Watpac—it’s got nothing to do with you. It was your project, though. Don’t you feel some responsibility to investigate and make sure the subcontractors on your projects are treated fairly by the prime contractor? 

Mr Jenkinson: I have to say that I’m not aware of that situation, and I might have to take that question on notice in terms of the situation and what happened. I don’t have a full understanding.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’d appreciate a full answer, so I’m fine with that. So that you’re aware, the situation caused millions of dollars in losses to what I understand is a relatively small operator which has financially sunk due to the compounding effects of it. I’d also like to know whether or not you have some sense of duty to subcontractors that are engaged on your projects.  

Mr Jenkinson: What I can say is that, in terms of understanding how we pay operators that we work with, we behave in the most appropriate way in terms of the speed at which we pay people. I’m not aware of the relationship with that particular subcontractor and, again, I’d have to take that question on notice to give a fuller answer.  

Senator ROBERTS: My understanding is that it’s not you who should be paying them; it’s Watpac who should have paid them, and Watpac—  

Mr Jenkinson: That would be my understanding, but I’m not aware of the relationship with Watpac and what happened.  

Senator ROBERTS: If you could take that on notice, too, I’d like to know how you see your sense of responsibility.  

Mr Jenkinson: Sure.  

Senator ROBERTS: This is my last question, Chair. What do you have in place that ensures that, for your future projects, if a subcontractor has a complaint they’re able to raise it with you?

Mr Jenkinson: Again, I would have to take on notice what our procurement policy is and how we take those details, but there certainly is an opportunity for people to contact us, and we would obviously take account of any information people send to us. But I’ll have to take that on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. If you could, tell me what it is now, whether or not you think it’s adequate for preventing a recurrence of something like this and, if it’s not adequate, then what you would do to make sure it is.  

Mr Jenkinson: Certainly, Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair.  

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Yoga Teachers Prioritised Over Tradies for Immigration Flood

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With 520,000 net arrivals in one year, we’re now being told that yoga teachers will be prioritised over tradies to be let in the country.

Despite telling Australians immigration is necessary for skilled workers to build homes, the truth has emerged that yoga teachers (including up to 1,800 Indian yoga teachers, weirdly specific) and dog handlers appear on the priority skills list while not a single construction trade does.

If you ever needed proof the immigration program is a Ponzi scheme, just look at the fact that yogis and dog walkers are getting priority over construction workers.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing today. I’ll be very brief in my questioning. Was the department consulted at all on the draft core skills visa list that prioritises immigration for yoga teachers, martial arts instructors and dog handlers above construction tradespeople?  

Ms James: Senator, I appreciate you weren’t in the room, but we had quite a lot of questioning about this earlier today. We have answered that question, and the answer is, no, we weren’t consulted in relation to that. It’s not our role to provide input in that way. Jobs and Skills Australia, which is an independent agency, has been in a consultation process about those lists, and it’s important to emphasise that they are all still in draft form.  

Senator ROBERTS: I think I pointed that out—yes, draft core skills. I want to ask about the trade support loan eligibility list. Is anyone here familiar with that?  

Ms Campbell: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: I understand leather production and saddlery were not on that list and that the government is not accepting it as an apprenticeship that can lead to work in the agricultural sector, which would make it eligible. We’re talking about saddles here; they go on horses and they get used in agriculture, so it seems like a pretty clear link. Can you tell me if leather production and saddlery will be on the trade support loan eligibility list and when this will happen?  

Ms Campbell: The Australian apprenticeship priority list, which is also used for the trade support loan, which is now known as the Australian apprenticeship support loan program, identifies priority occupations based on the Jobs and Skills Australia skills priority list. To be on that list, they need to have been determined by JSA as being in national shortage and be classified as being in ANZSCO major group 3, trades and technicians, or ANZSCO group 4, care and community workers, and to have the use of an apprenticeship pathway as a key form of entering that qualification.  

Senator ROBERTS: So I take it the answer is no.  

Ms Campbell: I’m assuming—but I would need to check—that it’s not in national skill shortage.  

Senator ROBERTS: If you could, do that on notice, please.  

Ms Campbell: Yes.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much. 

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Who Will Hold the Department of Defence Accountable?

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I asked the Inspector General of the Australian Defence Force (IGADF) about some decisions from Defence that I believe warrant investigation.

I was under the impression that the IGADF would have some jurisdiction over complaints if Defence bureaucrats had a perceived conflict of interest.

In this session, they seem to wash their hands of all responsibility of inspecting this potential breach of integrity. Could it be something to do with the fact that the document in question was critical of the Brereton Report, which the IGADF created?

I will continue to make sure soldiers are given due process and generals are made accountable. If anyone is going to be put in jail for war crimes, the first ones locked up should be the politicians and generals that sent our men there.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr Gaynor, for being here. I understand you’ve received a complaint in relation to the decision-maker on Defence freedom of information application 577/23/24. Are you in a position to confirm that you have received that and you’re processing it?  

Mr Gaynor: No, I can’t answer that question, because I don’t understand which case it might relate to with just that number, but I can take that question on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much. Catherine Wallis was the person who decided to block the release of the Afghanistan Inquiry Implementation Oversight Panel report. She is the Director-General of the Afghanistan Inquiry Response Task Force. The panel report is highly critical of the taskforce Catherine Wallis leads. I must say that the defence department pulled out some quotes that were favourable to Ms Wallis or to the oversight panel, but there are many, many other quotes that Defence neglected. So the panel report is highly critical of the task force Catherine Wallis leads, and she’s the decision-maker on whether to release that report under freedom of information. On the face of it, that would be a conflict of interest that you would be able to investigate, wouldn’t it?  

Mr Gaynor: These questions would be better directed to the Afghanistan Inquiry Response Task Force or to the Department of Defence. If freedom of information application 577 refers to a freedom of information application for the oversight panel’s report, then my office has had nothing to do with that report or with that freedom of information application. The role of my office is principally threefold. It’s an integrity, inquiry and assurance agency. My statutory role is to examine failures in the military justice system, to inquire into the deaths of ADF members where those deaths appear to have arisen out of or in the course of their service, and also to superintend the statutory Redress of Grievance complaints scheme, which is available for all ADF members.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for your response. It would seem to me that under the first one, ‘integrity’ and ‘inquiry’, this would be perfectly placed, because there appears to be a massive conflict of interest with Ms Wallis signing off and, in fact, signing off on a previous FOI application but not signing off on this one. 

Mr Gaynor: Yes. I say ‘yes’ not to indicate agreement, but I understand your question. But my role is to examine matters affecting the military justice system. What you’re talking about here is an administrative decision that’s been made under the FOI Act. There are other ways of seeking review of such decisions, both internal and external to the Department of Defence.  

Senator ROBERTS: Do you have any information on why Catherine Wallis deleted her position title on the taskforce from her signature on this decision, despite including it on a different decision only days earlier?  

Mr Gaynor: My office conducted the IGADF Afghanistan inquiry. We delivered the report to the Chief of the Defence Force in November 2020. Noting that my office is an independent statutory office within the Defence portfolio that’s otherwise separate from the administrative functions and the department’s functions, I don’t have any visibility or oversight of freedom-of-information decisions that are made within the Department of Defence.  

Senator ROBERTS: With your familiarity with the Defence systems, presumed on my part, I’m wondering how someone with such a conflict of interest could be allowed to make the decision of blocking the release of the report which is critical of her work. Could you tell me who you think would be the best avenue for us to go to?  

Mr Gaynor: No, Senator, I genuinely cannot. There would be an official within the department who is responsible for freedom of information, but I don’t know who that individual is. Freedom-of-information decisions that are received by my office are made within my office. I don’t have visibility of the department’s decision-making.  

Senator ROBERTS: Your duties as inspector-general don’t cover scrutiny of freedom of information from Defence?  

Mr Gaynor: That’s correct.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much, Mr Gaynor. 

Mr Gaynor: You’re welcome.  

CHAIR: Is that it?  

Senator ROBERTS: That’s it 

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The Australian Financial Complaints Authority Faces Scrutiny

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The Australian Financial Complaints Authority (AFCA), an independent industry-funded agency, handles complaints concerning financial losses due to actions by banks, insurance companies, or superannuation funds. While AFCA has a reputation for avoiding complaints rather than addressing them, their recent accomplishment of collecting $300 million for members of the public affected by financial misbehaviour is a good result.

My questioning of AFCA didn’t start smoothly, as CEO David Locke seemed unaware that the AFCA website explicitly asks that individuals with concerns about a code of practice to submit them via the form provided, as part of their role overseeing the Banking Code of Practice review body, the BCCC.

It took until around the 2 minutes 52 seconds mark to receive a response to what, I thought, was a straightforward opening question. Subsequently, I pursued questions regarding AFCA’s success rates. A significant portion of their response was taken on notice, so I look forward to receiving their answers.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Your website invites consumers to lodge a complaint regarding the operation of a code of practice. How many such complaints have you received on the Banking Code of Practice?

Mr Locke: We receive complaints where a consumer has a contract with the bank and they have suffered financial loss. Then they can bring a complaint through to AFCA. So the matter is really if, for example, the bank has failed to comply with its legal obligations or they’ve suffered loss through some misconduct or inappropriate action on the part of the bank. We have to determine what’s fair, and, in looking at that, we have to have regard to the banking code. That’s how the banking code comes into effect. We had 56,000 complaints about banks and other credit lenders last year. In terms of a freestanding complaint about the banking code, though, that would normally go through to the Banking Code Compliance Committee, which is a separate body, and their role is to enforce the banking code. The banking code is relevant to us in our jurisdiction and we do look at it, but, if it’s just about a financial firm breaching the banking code obligations on its own, then that would be a matter that would go through to the Banking Code Compliance Committee.

Senator ROBERTS: So you would only field the complaint if it was a breach of the banking code?

Dr Smith: We can take complaints about breaches of the banking code if the consumer can show that there has been a financial loss suffered as a result of that breach or indeed that they have suffered non-financial loss as a result of that particular breach. For example, a breach of the provision under the banking code related to guarantees and whether or not the guarantor was fully informed of their rights before they entered into that guarantee might be a matter that we would take as a complaint.

Senator ROBERTS: So, if someone was just concerned about a potential change or a possible change in the banking code, which is coming up, they would not be lodging a complaint with you?

Dr Smith: The conduct needs to have occurred. But, in terms of future issues, there has obviously been a recent review of that code and no doubt that person could also voice those concerns to the Banking Code Compliance Committee.

Senator ROBERTS: Have you had any communication with the Australian Banking Association regarding their review of the banking code?

Mr Locke: Yes. We were consulted in a fashion by the Australian Banking Association in the course of their review. They commissioned an independent review of the banking code, which was carried out, and then they undertook an informal consultation process with a number of bodies, including us. Following that, they approached the Australian Securities and Investments Commission for approval to change the banking code. This is a code that has been approved by ASIC, so any changes need to be approved by ASIC. ASIC decided to undertake its own consultation, and we participated in that and made a submission to it as well. So we’ve engaged with the ABA and we’ve engaged with ASIC with regard to the ABA’s review.

Senator ROBERTS: On notice, could I get a copy of your comments to the ABA and ASIC, please.

Mr Locke: Certainly. We’ll take that on notice. We have made a public submission, and it’s available on our website, but we can certainly send the link through to your office.

Senator ROBERTS: From the data on your website, for the year 2023, the number of complaints resolved in favour of the complainant was only 31 per cent, with 69 per cent in favour of the bank or financial institution. However, only five per cent of complaints reached the decision stage. Some were rectified early on and some were refused process. Of the complaints over banking disputes—just banking—how many complaints were received, how many were resolved in favour of the complainant and how many were withdrawn for 2023?

Mr Locke: I can provide all those details on notice, Senator.

Senator ROBERTS: That’s fine.

Mr Locke: What I can tell you is the way our process works. A consumer will have gone through an independent dispute resolution process with the bank and then come through to AFCA. AFCA sends it back to the bank for them to have one last opportunity to resolve the matter before we otherwise start working on it. What we’re finding is that about 65 per cent of the time the banks resolve the matter at that point.

Senator ROBERTS: Once you step in?

Mr Locke: Yes. Obviously we would prefer for that to have been done and for people not to have to come to AFCA, but we’re finding that 65 per cent of the time there. What we then find is that we are able to resolve the majority of cases through our case-working process—through mediation, through recommendations and through negotiation. Only about five per cent of matters actually go through to decision. What you will see is that the matters that resolve when we go back to the bank or the matters that resolve through our processes—that is a situation where the consumer is effectively happy with the agreement that they’ve reached with the bank. So you would expect that the small number that go through to determinations are probably the ones where it’s more contentious, more of a binary decision. You would expect that, where the consumer had a better claim, the banks would have resolved the cases earlier in the process. But I can set all of that out on notice so you’ve got that.

Senator ROBERTS: Could you also break down the information into value groups so that I can see the success rate at progressively higher amounts of claim. My feedback is that AFCA are great at getting back $1,000 but not so good at getting back $100,000. The banks’ clutches are maybe a bit stronger.

Mr Locke: I’ll certainly provide you with whatever we have in terms of the breakdown. Last year our work secured $304 million in compensation and refunds for consumers and small-business owners, but we can give you the amounts that relate to that. I don’t think it is the case that it’s just lower value amounts that have been settling. We do settle a number of matters where the settlement is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. We’ll provide you with some information on that.

Senator ROBERTS: I’m hearing settlements are a fraction of the claim but the complainant accepts something rather than nothing. On notice, of all complaints settled on behalf of the complainant, what was the value of claim verses the settlement accepted or awarded?

Mr Locke: I don’t think we would have that information, but I can certainly let you have the information that we have available.

Mr Untersteiner: The challenge with that is: if something is settled between the parties before it goes to determination, there’s no obligation for them to disclose to us what the settlement was, so we typically won’t have visibility. We have some visibility, and, on notice, we can share with you what we do have, but it will be a small cut of the overall data.

Mr Locke: There are three cohorts that I talked about. The first cohort, when we go back to the financial firm, is given an opportunity to resolve. We don’t normally know what the resolution of that matter is. We just know the consumer’s happy and doesn’t want us to do anything further. That is what we call IDR data, internal dispute resolution data. The firms have, since January, had to report that through to ASIC, so ASIC would have some of that data. The data that we will have are those cases that don’t resolve and that are then resolved through our caseworking process or the matters that go through to decision, which you have mentioned. With regard to that, I can certainly provide that.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you very much, if you could do that. When AFCA were set up, you were allowed to go back to 2012 to take on older cases. On notice, of all banking cases referred to you for the period 2012 to 2018 for an amount over $200,000, how many were resolved in favour of the complainant, and what was awarded as opposed to what was claimed?

Mr Locke: I will take that on notice. I think, in total in that look-back jurisdiction, if I recall right we had just under 1,500 cases. A majority of those did relate to banking and credit matters. We will certainly take that on notice and provide you with what information we can.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Finally, for that group of claims, are there any claims still outstanding from 2012 to 2018?

Mr Locke: No. They’ve all been dealt with.

Senator ROBERTS: Great. Thank you. The next question is about your administration. Are you still closing your office at 2 pm on Wednesdays so the staff can go home in the name of productivity?

Mr Locke: We don’t close the office, but we do give staff—it’s effectively a bit like compressed hours—three hours to spend on wellbeing or to use for their time. This was an initiative we trialled during COVID, when we were seeing a lot of burnout and stress amongst our people. We discussed it with our people. We didn’t change any of our productivity measures, so the same amount of work had to be completed within the five-day week as was completed with this three-hour period. What we actually found was that productivity increased, and we’ve found that’s continued to be the case. We actually have higher levels of productivity now than at any time in the operation of the organisation, by caseworker. We found giving people that small amount of flexibility has actually made sound business sense. The initial intent behind it was about wellbeing, particularly when we were seeing a lot of and stress and challenges during lockdowns. Of course the majority of our staff are Melbourne, and they had prolonged lockdowns at that time. But what we’ve actually seen is that productivity has increased and continued to increase. So that is something that we do, but we don’t close the phones. It is an optional thing. Many staff work during that period but use it just for quiet time without interruption, but some staff use it to pick up the kids or to look after older relatives or to arrange appointments. As I said, the same amount of work has to be done during the working week.

Mr Untersteiner: I’ll just add that we did measure and we saw our attrition rates drop, we saw absenteeism drop, we saw productivity go up, we saw cost per complaint go down and we’ve seen employee engagement go up. Just from a general business initiative and a cost perspective, it’s been cost positive.

Chair: I need to share the call, Senator Roberts. Do you have another question?

Senator ROBERTS: I can put two on notice, but I’ve got one final question. Are financial institutions afraid of AFCA, or do they see you as another pesky bureaucracy that needs to be surmounted or brushed aside?

Mr Locke: Well, I hope—

Senator ROBERTS: I know you said 65 per cent of complaints are resolved.

Mr Locke: I can’t speak on behalf of—there are 44,000 members. About three-quarters of those are people who have ACRs, and the remainder are different firms with Australian financial services licences. I don’t think there’s any unified view with regard to that. What I hope, Senator, is that financial firms recognise that we play an important role. We do our utmost to act independently and fairly to determine intractable matters that otherwise people would presumably be coming to their elected representatives for or going to the media about. We seek to give people closure on matters, whether that goes in their favour or not. We act in accordance with the rules, and we apply our fairness jurisdiction in accordance with the way that we articulate there. I don’t seek for anybody to be afraid of us. I hope that industry see us as playing a constructive and useful role and recognise our legitimacy, but I hope that they also recognise that we will call matters as we see them and we will treat all parties fairly and independently. That’s our role as an alternative to the court system.

Senator ROBERTS: Could you take on notice if there’s any sign, evidence or statistic that reflects that the financial institutions respect what you’re doing.

Mr Locke: I’ll take that on notice.

Senator ROBERTS: It’s a difficult one.

Mr Locke: It’s a difficult one for us to answer really.

Senator ROBERTS: It is; I accept that.

Mr Locke: We hope that parliamentarians, financial firms and people who act on behalf of consumers, whether that’s law firms or consumer bodies, respect the role that we play and believe that we do that to our utmost ability.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you

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