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Audit Needed on Closing the Gap Spending

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I acknowledge the significant contributions Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians have made to Australia and highlighted the failure of the Closing the Gap initiative, with only 4 out of 17 targets being met, with some even worsening.

I recommended that resources should be directed straight to communities, bypassing the various entities within the Aboriginal Industry that thrive on perpetuating the Gap for their own benefit.

Despite receiving $4.5 billion for the 2022-23 year, the National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA) has little to show for it. It raises questions about where the money has gone.

I questioned why the Albanese government is refusing to conduct a full audit of government spending in this area. What are they trying to conceal?

Transcript

Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are hugely talented in the NRL, the AFL, arts, business, science, sport and politics, with a higher proportion of Aboriginal people in the Federal Parliament than across Australia. I’ve driven to all Cape York communities twice and some three times. I’ve flown or boated into Torres Strait Island communities where people really care for each other, but government control removes meaning from life and suffocates that care. I have enormous faith in Aboriginal and Islander people. Why doesn’t the government? Aboriginal people are resilient after surviving Australia’s harsh environment for thousands of years. They don’t need mollycoddling. 

The Closing the gap annual report is clear—a total failure in closing the gap. Only four of 17 targets have been met or have achieved goals, and some gaps are actually worsening. Labor-Greens and Liberal-Nationals governments fail to listen to or meet people’s real needs. Patronising paternalism and top-down approaches suppress, torment and destroy Aboriginal people. In reporting to parliament on closing the gap, successive prime ministers and opposition leaders duck and weave, using broad, fluffy motherhood statements to portray vague, insincere aspirations devoid of data and specifics—lies. The governmental view that it knows best is clearly wrong.  

So where’s the solution? For the 2022-23 financial year, total resourcing for the National Indigenous Australians Agency, the NIAA, was $4.5 billion on programs. The result was rank failure. Where did the money go? This government continually refuses to audit government spending in this sector. Why? What’s being hidden from scrutiny? Last October in Senate estimates hearings, I asked whether money would be more effective if it went directly to Aboriginal communities. I meant it. The NIAA said that it sometimes allocates money to communities. I meant directly to communities, bypassing agencies for direct allocations to communities via a transparent, objective formula. 

When I travel across communities in Far North Queensland and the Northern Territory, listening to local Aboriginal people, it’s clear they know the answers. I was told that many, many activists, advocates, consultants, lawyers, academics, contractors and public servants rely on keeping the gap wide open, because they work the system, and their livelihoods depend on the program’s ongoing failure. They depend on the gap being maintained, not closed, to perpetuate the need for their roles and accompanying salaries. 

Reportedly, Mr Ian Trust chairs Empowered Communities, an Aboriginal organisation and alliance of 10 Aboriginal regions that lobbied hard for the opportunity to review funding decisions with government. In 2017, more than half of the funding considered was found to be duplication and misdirection. Of $1.98 million spent, $1 million was wasted. With sensible local representatives in charge, this model develops responsibility and ownership. Mr Trust supported the cashless debit card and objected to the Albanese government’s capricious decision to take it away without consulting the people. Despite extensive evidence of alcohol related harm to Aboriginal children, the McGowan Labor government ignored his calls for severe alcohol restrictions in his home town. Why won’t governments listen and learn? 

The Australian people spoke decisively when we overwhelmingly rejected the divisive Voice referendum 60-40. We, the people of Australia, do not want race to decide rights that should apply to all Australians, yet some states and territories are still actively considering introducing voices and/or treaties. That’s a big middle finger to the Australian people’s decision. South Australia’s One Nation MP, Sarah Game, is sponsoring a bill to repeal the South Australian voice legislation, which clearly has no public mandate. I applaud Sarah Game’s initiative. 

When will this government accept the advice from grassroots Aboriginal groups as to what does and does not work based on real-life experience and go beyond that to give communities real autonomy? It’s time that leeches and bureaucrats sucking on the teats of the Aboriginal industry realise that their time is up and that we’re coming for them. Senator Pauline Hanson opened this debate 27 years ago and remains at the fore of pushing for equitable treatment for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, the same as for all Australians. Now in the Senate we have Senators Nampijinpa Price and Kerrynne Liddle joining us in speaking common sense and truth. 

The government needs to consider bypassing state and agency grants to fund communities directly to develop autonomy for real improvement. As a senator to the people of Queensland and Australia, I serve the people of Queensland and Australia. I support it as the quickest and most powerful way to develop responsibility, ownership and progress. This solution is based on autonomy, human community and responsibility being keys to closing the gap. 

Question agreed to. 

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Native Title Inquiry Needed Now

I spoke in support of Senator Hanson’s motion for an inquiry into Native Title.

The problem many of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders we speak to have continuously raised with us is that under Native Title the land is locked up and can’t benefit from it. That’s about half of Australia locked up under Native Title and held with the government. Is it any wonder the United Nations is so interested in Native Title?

The white and black aboriginal industry consists of lawyers, consultants, activists, academics, politicians and bureaucrats. They all claim to be ‘closing the gap’ between Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders’ standard of living and other non aboriginal Australians. The fundamental flaw in this system is that those running the industry are parasitically living off the money that is given to the aboriginal communities. It is a self-perpetuating problem.

Every year the billions of taxpayers’ dollars poured into solving the problem is being syphoned off by the same individuals who “claim” to be helping. Very little of the money makes it through to those in need.

You may recall when the Western nations were called upon to donate to ease the famine in African nations, very little of that aid often didn’t make it past the greedy government bureaucrats. This is what’s going on in Australia now. The pressure to scale it up is significant, but it will only increase the size of the industry and make it worse. What is needed is a solution to the Native Title problem that’s locking up the land. A sunset clause in the Native Title act should also be included. We need accountability within the white and black aboriginal industry.

Autonomy and accountability is what the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities are hungry for, yet they are being blocked by those who are living off the industry in the cities, both aboriginal and non-aboriginal.

It’s time to close the gap for good. We need this inquiry.

Transcript

As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia I speak to Senator Hanson’s motion, which I’ll read for clarification. It states:

That the following matter be referred to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 4 June 2024:

(a) the establishment of a sunset date in relation to submission of claims of native title, after which no further claims of native title can be made; and

(b) the effectiveness of the operation of the native title system, options to improve economic development resulting from native title, and options to improve certainty over the claim process.

We want an inquiry.

Since the concept of native title was accepted by the High Court in the case of Mabo there have been mixed views from Indigenous and non-Indigenous commentators as to the benefits that have flowed to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities. The extent and nature of these was spelt out in the now rather complex Native Title Act 1993 and some further decisions of the High Court, including the Wik case in 1996. The act sets out a bundle of rights, some exclusive and some non-exclusive. Some exclusive rights relate to traditional activities, including the rights to fish, hunt and gather within the determined claim area—and I note as an aside here that Minister Plibersek’s latest piece of legislation seeks to take that away from Aboriginals, according to Aboriginals in northern Australia—but those rights cannot be transferred or on sold. Native title is extinguished by subsequent freehold and suppressed by leasehold, although that may revive at the expiry of the lease. Recent figures from the Native Title Tribunal indicate that determinations comprise more than 50 per cent of Australian land mass, more than half of our country.

One of the features of the Native Title Act is the attempt to balance the rights of all parties. The use of Indigenous land use agreements is a way of establishing possible land use, including mining leases and other means of gaining some commercial benefit, registered for the traditional owners. These can be varied at some later time through the National Native Title Tribunal.

When we were last in Cooktown we met with a local community leader, an upstanding man, who shared with us his views on native title and its impacts on his community and on many communities across Cape York. He said that native title was important from the aspect of recognition of the Indigenous perspective of their relationship with the land and recognising that Indigenous people were the first inhabitants of Australia and that they have inherent property rights in the land. His view was that the Native Title Act was not providing Indigenous people with something tangible, because they could not use native title to advance any individual interests. Land under native title cannot be mortgaged to help build a home or be used as collateral to support a business loan. The land is essentially locked up and not used to support small projects.

It’s really about seizing the land, holding it and not giving it to anyone to use. It’s no wonder that we see the words ‘United Nations’ so frequently in the Native Title Act preamble. This is a land grab and the Aboriginals are not benefiting. Because the land is not freehold, nobody is able to work towards owning their own home because the property is now locked away out of reach. No-one is getting this land. The Commonwealth government are able to reclaim native title land and convert it to freehold, and some compensation is then paid to the traditional owners, but this does not benefit any individuals. People in the cities think that this was all fixed years ago. They don’t realise that the No. 1 complaint in remote Aboriginal communities across the north of Australia is that they can’t get access to land to have their own houses and their own businesses. With land ownership prevented, there is little incentive to work towards beneficial goals. My friend said that he wished to own his own place in this community. He cannot own his own place in the community. He wishes to build up and expand his small business as a shop owner but he cannot buy the premises. He must hope that he can lease the shop from the local traditional owners.

These comments were echoed right across the cape by constituents, council mayors and council members, and in the Territory and, we’ve heard also, in Western Australia. It was universal. Not one person to whom we spoke had a good thing to say about native title, other than that it provides some recognition of them as First Australians.

When asked about the government’s closing the gap policy, he made the telling comment that the government was not serious about closing the gap because that would be contrary to the white and black Aboriginal industry that thrives on keeping Aboriginals dependent. With the exception of two Aboriginal members of parliament, Senator Nampijinpa Price and Senator Kerynne Liddle, Aboriginal senators—the other nine—don’t talk about the white and black Aboriginal industry that consists of lawyers, consultants, activists, academics, politicians and bureaucratics who are living parasitically off the money that is given to Aboriginal communities. They’ve stolen it from the Aboriginal communities. The billions of dollars that are poured into solving the problem are siphoned off by those supposed to be assisting, and little of the money and other handouts makes it to those in real need. That’s what’s going on in this country. It’s important for many people to keep the gap wide open.

I listened to a councillor on Badu Island, up in the Torres Strait, about closing the gap. I’ve been across the cape twice, and to some communities three times. In every community we asked, ‘What about closing the gap?’ Some people said, ‘What’s closing the gap?’ Others said, ‘It’s useless.’ When we asked this particular councillor on Badu Island, he said to me, ‘Malcolm, the point about closing the gap is that it will never be closed because there are people feeding off the maintenance of the gap.’ The parasitic white and black Aboriginal industry are feeding off closing the gap.

My friend went on to say that one of the biggest problems in communities was the lack of decent community housing. There were 19 people living in one of the local houses, and many people were homeless. In his community, 70 per cent of the residents were receiving welfare. Many were not coping. Mental health issues were climbing. What my staff have seen on Mornington Island is disgraceful. It’s caused by the white and black Aboriginal industry. They perpetuate the misery so that they can get the funds. As I said, this was a common comment across the cape and up into the Torres Strait.

Further north, a mayor told me that the problems also involved how grant moneys were divided up between the various interest groups, and again highlighted the housing and employment crises. There were no jobs and there was not enough housing.

Why will only two Aboriginal members of this Senate discuss the white and black Aboriginal industry? I have to commend Senator Nampijinpa Price for doing so with vigour. She points out that that white and black industry is destroying accountability, and things in Aboriginal communities won’t change without accountability. The people in the communities that I’ve listened to are hungry for autonomy and accountability. They want it.

I understand that in 1998 John Howard, as Prime Minister, attempted to amend the Native Title Act by putting in place a sunset clause. John Howard, I’m advised, moved to put in place a sunset clause. As Prime Minister, what advice did he get on the legality? Senator Cash would get some answers to clause (a) if there was some form of inquiry. What’s wrong with having an inquiry? Why do you keep blocking Senator Pauline Hanson wanting simple inquiries into basic, fundamental questions?

As I understand it, before Cook arrived the Torres Strait Islands had some form of property rights, handed down from generation to generation, where the holder of the land was clearly recognised. But the mainland not so, I’m advised. We were reminded by Senator Rennick that the High Court decision on Mabo was very close: four to three. We need an inquiry to see how it’s working and to go back to fundamentals. ‘Thirty-one years,’ Senator Rennick said. ‘We need an inquiry. We’re the house of review.’ I concur with Senator Rennick.

Senator Ayres raises the point about Aboriginal Warren Mundine possibly entering the Senate. I don’t know, but does Senator Ayres not want Aboriginals in the Senate because of their views? No-one tonight has offered a solution to the native title problem of land locking, although revisiting Indigenous land use agreements and considering leases for individual housing projects may deserve further consideration.

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North Australia Gutted by Government Mess

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Transcript

[Marcus] Malcolm Roberts, good morning to you, Malcolm?

[Malcolm] Good morning, Marcus, how are you doing?

[Marcus] I’m okay. First thing first. I wanna play you something back from a couple of weeks ago when you and I had a discussion on this radio programme, are you ready?

[Malcolm] Yes, I am.

[Marcus] Okay.

[Malcolm] Trump is in the box seat, he knows what he’s doing.

[Marcus] All right, you wanna bet me a bottle of wine on this? Australian wine.

[Malcolm] I definitely do but not yet, I’m very happy to send you a bottle of Stanthorpe wine if you win, but Trump is still in the box seat, mate.

[Marcus] Oh, Malcolm.

[Malcolm] Trump is coming home.

[Marcus] Hang on, Malcolm, Malcolm, Malcolm. No he’s not in the box seat.

[Malcolm] Yes, I haven’t seen the other, any headlines tonight, but he has got a process in play that’s been done before in the United States, it’s been upholding the constitution, it’s all proven and that’s underway and it will be unfolding in the next few weeks.

[Malcolm] I’m serious, Marcus.

[Marcus] I know you are, that’s the worry.

[Malcolm] I love the bet but I’m serious.

[Marcus] All right, let’s get on to some other issues. The Northern Australian agenda, the Torres Straits, Horn Island, Thursday Islands, Senate Select Committees on the Government’s agenda for Northern Australia in a nutshell, not going anywhere and deeply disappointing. What are the issues preventing development in Northern Australia, Malcolm?

[Malcolm] Have a listen to these, energy prices, property rights and land tenures, infrastructure, water, transport, telecommunications, a hopeless jumble of government services, all three layers of the government that’s state, federal, and local are not working together, there’s massive duplication, massive waste, huge gaps in service delivery. Now those things are occurring right throughout Australia.

And so how can we expect a development of productive capacity here in the North where there’s low population and lack of infrastructure, when the Southern areas of New South Wales, the rest of our country are being gutted by the same things, the destruction of productive capacity. And so what we’re really seeing up here, I mean, you, you’ve got problems in New South Wales I understand with ferries and trains that are built overseas and we have the same.

In Brisbane Queensland, we’ve had trains built overseas by both the liberal and labour governments in the past, they’ve come here with faults in them that had to be fixed. We have the ability, we just have lost the productive capacity because our governments, state and federal have destroyed that productive capacity.

[Marcus] I heard something, yeah, sorry, Malcolm, I heard something really interesting yesterday. In Victoria, and I know that Dan Andrews has copped a fair bit this year, trying to keep his constituents safe, but in Victoria to their credit, they have public transports, whether it’s buses, various trams, whatever, running around saying, “Proudly manufactured in Victoria.” Why is it that in Victoria, they can make their trams and their trains and their public transport infrastructure there but in New South Wales, in Queensland, we cannot.

[Malcolm] Well, I wonder how old those trams are because you know, our productive capacity is being destroyed over the last few decades, Marcus and I just wonder how long, how old those trams are. They still got the ability to make those trams? I don’t know. And you know, Victoria lost the Ford production facilities for cars, they’ve lost the Toyota production facility for cars, had lost various General Motors facilities, we haven’t got that productive capacity anymore. And so Victoria has done a very bad job.

Victoria has shut down it’s large power stations, which now make it vulnerable and dependent on New South Wales. I mean, this is a mess, our whole country and it’s a security issue, and it is a dead set security issue.

[Marcus] JobSeeker, my understanding from some stories floating around this morning, again, JobSeeker is blown out. In relation to costs, it’s gonna cost our economy billions of dollars more. I don’t know who’s doing the maths or the accounting treasury, but again, we see that job seekers, JobSeeker, the federal government’s plans through COVID 19 will end up costing more in the longer term.

[Malcolm] One of the things we have to start facing is the reality that state and federal governments have made a mess of the coronavirus, real mess of the way they’ve handled it. And I’ll give you some examples about JobSeeker in a minute up here in Queensland and especially in the North. But you know, Taiwan, Marcus have done by far the best job in the world, they’ve had no decrease in their economy, they’re bubbling along at the same rate as normal.

Our economy has been smashed and same with most economies. Taiwan, what they’ve done is they’ve tested people rigorously, they’ve traced people and they’ve quarantined people. They have isolated the sick and the vulnerable. We have shut down everyone. I mean, that is not the way you handle a pandemic. Now, initially, because it looks so bad because remember the people dying in Italy, we had to do something like that.

So we said to the government, “There is your open cheque, “just go for it, “do whatever you want.” That’s what we need to do when under such a crisis. When we realised, and we, but we said to them, “We’ll come looking for you “and holding you accountable,” when we realised that it wasn’t as bad as thought and then the total number of deaths in many countries around the world has not increased, the age deaths in Australia is lower than in the past years, so the total deaths have not increased, it’s not been what we’ve, what we were afraid of and that’s welcome news, the government hasn’t changed the tact.

And we’re still locked where we were until very recently locking down people. And we’re now, the coronavirus is still out there, we haven’t got a plan for managing the damn thing, and we’re still being managed by the Coronavirus. Victoria is still doing that. So what we have to do is actually look at what’s going on and come up with the plan. Never has the state or any federal government come up with the plan, never.

[Marcus] All right, the UK Climate Ambition Summit, we know that Scott Morrison was refused, well, basically, our nation is in the cold and all of these summits, you and I will disagree on the reasons why we’ve been cheating our way through our Kyoto agreements now for all- God, probably the best part of the last decade. But you and I differ on this, but just your thoughts on it.

[Malcolm] Well, it’s just another gabfest. The fortunate thing is that unlike all the other gabfests, there isn’t a huge transport demand pushing all these leaders together and producing carbon dioxide, which I know is got no problem, but they’re producing a hell of a lot of carbon dioxide to get to where they’re going and nothing comes out of it of any good.

And what we see is the United Nations pressuring nations to increase their carbon dioxide cast, which is insane, there’s no data to drive that, and Scott Morrison is now being pushed, and I think he’s relented and he is no longer going to use the Kyoto credits, that John Howard, stole, John Howard’s government, stole these credits, stole farmers’ property rights to get those credits, now we’re not even gonna use them. So we’ve got farmers owed somewhere between a hundred and $200 billion worth of compensation, or we need a restoration of their property rights right around the country.

[Marcus] Yeah.

[Malcolm] And so what we’re seeing is that the UN drove that stupidity from John Howard’s government, drove the state government in New South Wales and Queensland in particular to decimate their farmers, no compensation paid, and now we can’t even use them?

I mean, this is insane. And China’s commitment under these UN agreements is zero. They will continue in not only at their current levels of carbon dioxide output, they will continue increasing them. And so what they’ve got is their productive capacity continuing to grow by using our coals for their steel in the construction

[Marcus] Well I don’t know whether they’re gonna use, they’re going to use our coal considering what we’ve heard in the last week, Malcolm?

[Malcolm] Well, I think they will have to get back to it because they use coal for power generation, which is thermal coal exports. They’re about half of Japan’s intake of coal from Australia. Japan buys about almost $10 billion worth of coal from Australia, thermal coal for power stations, and China only buys 4 billion, but the key is in the metallurgical coal exports from Australia.

India has, buys $10 billion worth of coal, China just a fraction under that 9.7, Japan $7.4 billion worth. China needs our coal because our metallurgical coal for steel-making markets is the best in the world.

[Marcus] All right, I just want to move on to trade with China. It’s not getting any better, you know, we know that we’ve got a number of tariffs and a number of blockades if you like placed or put in place by Beijing, we’ve got Barley exports, we’ve got tariffs on other major exports including now, as I mentioned just before, the possibility that our coal will sit idle off the coast of China and not be allowed into the country. When is it gonna stop and what can we do about it, it’s not getting any better?

The reason China is picking on us I believe is that we have been very, very weak to ourselves. I’m not talking about standing up to China anyway, I’m talking about the Chinese are a totalitarian dictatorship, they are bullies. They’re being very subtle in the way they’re bringing people into the fold around the countries, through their belts and roads initiative, which Victoria has signed up to.

But what they can’t see, a bully always picks on the weakest first and the most vulnerable. Now China sees Australia as being allied with the United States. But China also sees Australia wrecking our own productive capacity. They see Australia kowtowing to UN agreements, ceding our sovereignty, giving up the control of our resources, the control of our productive capacity in this country.

China has said to the UN, “To hell with you lot, “we are going to continue our industrialization, we are ceding our jobs. we’re actually sending our jobs to China as we destroy our productive capacity. The Chinese also see us exporting coal and burning coal at very high cost in this country because of artificially inflated regulations that have destroyed the price of coal in this country, coal fired power.

And so what China is saying is we’re destroying ourselves. We’re subsidising the Chinese to build expensive renewable energy, solar, and wind in this country, which is destroying our electricity network even more, and then we’re seeing, they’re seeing us see that and they’re saying, “These people are contradicting “their own sovereignty, “they’re destroying their own values. “These people don’t know “what the hell they’re doing. “They have weakened their right.” And that’s what they’re doing. They’re sending us a very strong signal, “Get your house in order.”

[Marcus] And the human face of this, of course, 66 ships, 500 million to a billion dollars worth of coal currently sitting idle. We’ve got a thousand seafarers stuck out there. I mean, they’ve got families but hopefully, there’ll be some sort of a breakthrough. We need cool heads to prevail and I mean, I see, I tend to agree with you Malcolm, I can see, I can’t see China holding out for much longer.

[Malcolm] You know, it’s a very good point you’ve raised though the human face of it, but it’s true, but they’re not players in the trade dispute, the victims. Many haven’t been allowed to disembark apparently for about 20 months due to COVID, Marcus I think and the maximum time legally for seamen to be at sea is 11 months. The situation is deteriorating apparently for physically and mentally for these people.

There’s a limited supply of food and medicines and so, yeah, good on you for bringing up the human aspect. These people are caught in the middle and they’ve done nothing wrong.

[Marcus] All right, just wanna finish with lobster seafood. I mean, that’s how I plan on, well, look, to be honest, I plan on washing down a bit of lobster and a couple of prawns and some crab over Christmas with the wine you’re going to send me, but tell me, how can we help out our rock lobster industry?

[Malcolm] Marcus, the election date will be settled when the vice president, Mike Pence selects the candidate, selects the votes in

[Marcus] All right, so

[Malcolm] On January 6th

[Marcus] I’ll be having

[Malcolm] That will be A new year celebration

[Marcus] A new year one I like it, fair enough. All right, but let’s talk lobsters, mate.

[Malcolm] Yes, it was predicted that customers would eat more than 35 tonnes of lobster this year compared to just six and a half tonnes in the previous year. But now apparently, you need to get in early, there’s a limit of four per person I’ve been told. They’re now a bargain at $20 each because the Chinese are not taking our lobsters, so what we’re saying is get into the lobsters and go for it. Now I’m not a lobster fan, I prefer the Queensland mud crab, best seafood you can get,

[Marcus] Fair enough.

[Malcolm] But that’s my deal, but yeah, grab, go for the lobsters and wash it down with some Hunter Valley wine or some Stanthorpe wine from Queensland and enjoy your Christmas.

[Marcus] And shop Australian over Christmas too. And that’s something that Pauline and I talked about on the programme on Tuesday, we need to ensure that we buy up as much Australian wine as much Australian seafood and beef and support Australian industries during this time.

[Malcolm] So right, thank you very much for, for reminding us of that, Marcus. And I’d like to wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas and happy new year

[Marcus] Thank you.

[Malcolm] And the same to all your team, Justin and everyone, and all your listeners, a very happy new year and a very Merry Christmas.

[Marcus] You too, mate. We’ll talk again in 2021, we’ll finally settle the issue of Trump V Biden and I look forward to, I dunno a case or a bottle of something from you Malcolm.

[Malcolm] If Mike Pence goes away, I think he will and the constitutional precedence then I think you’ll be sending me a bottle of the wine, mate but if I’m wrong, I’ll be very happy to send it to you.

[Marcus] All right, mate, great to chat to you. Thank you so much for your time this year, we’ll catch up again in 2021.

[Malcolm] Look forward to it, thanks very much, Marcus and Merry Christmas.

[Marcus] All right, you too, mate. There he is, Malcolm Roberts, One Nation Senator, and look obviously, you know, me and a number of my listeners don’t always agree with everything Malcolm comes up with. But he does talk sense on, I think when it comes to things like industrial relations, reform, our trade issue with China and all these sort of stuff. I think he’s a little more moderate on that than say Scomo and his mob are, and I just enjoy Malcolm, my chats with him. We, we’re not always gonna agree. But gee that wine, will taste nice.

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