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NAAJA Crisis: Leadership Turmoil and Funding Mismanagement Allegations

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At the recent Senate Estimates, I inquired about the recent turmoil at the Northern Australian Aboriginal Justice Authority (NAAJA), which has seen six CEOs appointed over a two-year period. One of the CEOs was found by the Federal Court to have been unfairly dismissed and chronic staff shortages have led to the suspension of legal representation, leaving approximately 75 Aboriginal individuals unrepresented in court. I questioned how someone with a history of domestic violence could be appointed Chairman of the Board and still remain a Director of the agency. The answer – this individual was elected by the other Directors.  

Currently, a grant controller has been appointed to oversee the funds being given to the NAAJA to ensure they are spent appropriately. The grant controller is part of an external firm, adding another layer of bureaucracy to prevent misuse. Refunds of unspent funds are under review and an audit decision is expected by late November.  A new Annual General Meeting (AGM) is scheduled for later this year. I asked why the government opposes full audits. Senator McCarthy denied any misuse of funds, though community members claim that money is not reaching the grassroots level. Performance audits will be provided to me on notice.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you for appearing. I have questions on the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency. Does someone need to come up for that? 

Ms Broun: Senator, we have got NIAA and Attorney-General’s Department. 

Senator ROBERTS: I don’t know who to address this to. 

Ms Broun: This is Attorney-General’s. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I’m told the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency, the Northern Territory’s largest Aboriginal legal service, has been in turmoil in recent years. Since late 2022 there have been six CEOs appointed to the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency. That’s in just two years. Its long-standing CEO, Ms Priscilla Atkins, was controversially sacked in February 2023, and she was found in June 2024 by the federal court to have been unfairly dismissed. The agency has suffered a chronic shortage of lawyers and other staff, leading to a suspension of the provision of legal services and almost 75 Aboriginal clients not being represented in court during the staff shortage. They are the figures I have. Minister, is Mr Hugh Woodbury, former CEO and domestic violence perpetrator, still a director of the board of the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency? 

Senator McCarthy: Yes, he is. We were asked these questions earlier today—just to let you know. 

Senator ROBERTS: How is this man able to be appointed the CEO with such a history, given the prevalence of domestic violence as an issue within the Aboriginal community? We’ve seen Senator Cox and Senator Nampijinpa Price both raising this issue. 

Mr Worth: Senator, it is for the membership of NAAJA to appoint board members under their constitution. They are an ASIC organisation registered with the ACNC. The appointment of Mr Woodbury to chair that board was made by the board without the knowledge or permission sought by the NIAA. Subsequent to that, Mr Woodbury has resigned as chairman of the board. He remains as a director of NAAJA as is allowed under the terms of the regulator for that organisation, being the ACNC, under the terms of the Commonwealth’s funding agreement. Given that Mr Woodbury is not directly involved in the management or service delivery in his capacity as a non-executive director, consent from NAAJA is not required from the Commonwealth for him to hold that position. 

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, it seems pretty unusual for us to be asking the taxpayers of Australia to be giving money to such an entity. What is the state of Commonwealth funding to the agency? There’s been talk of refunds, stopping money, audit and misspent money. 

Mr Worth: Since December last year the NIAA has had in place a grant controller managing the funding provided by the NIAA to NAAJA. Under the scope of that arrangement the grant controller reviews the expenditure from NAAJA in relation to those funded programs. When they are satisfied that sufficient evidence has been provided, they release funds to NAAJA. So it’s tightly controlled. All of the standard performance management and performance reporting requirements that exist within our contracts continue. So, again, they need to be meeting both the performance standards and requirements of the contract as well as having the additional scrutiny provided by the grant controller to ensure that there’s clear alignment between the expenditure and the funds that have been provided. 

Senator ROBERTS: I missed the earlier part of your answer; I was looking down here. Where does the grant controller, the grant manager, fit in the scheme of things, in the hierarchy? 

Mr Worth: The grant controller is an external firm that’s been appointed to manage those funds. They act on behalf of the NIAA, but they are an independent body and they effectively sit in between the NIAA and NAAJA, as I said before, to ensure that NAAJA is applying the funds appropriately in line with the contract. 

Senator ROBERTS: So we’ve got the taxpayer giving money to the government, giving money to the NIAA, giving money to the grant controller—the grant manager—who then authorises the money to go to NAAJA. 

Mr Worth: To be released—effectively the grant controller acts as a trustee of sorts in terms of just holding and releasing the funds once the evidence has been provided. 

Senator ROBERTS: There are a lot of people in the chain. Is the Commonwealth funding of $80 million over five years ending in 2025 still the plan, or is this sum being reviewed? 

Ms Harvey: The Attorney-General’s Department is responsible for legal assistance funding. Through the National Legal Assistance Partnership, which is in place from July 2020 until the end of June 2025, we provide funding through to the Northern Territory government that then provides funding through to NAAJA as well as its legal aid commission and other bodies. So that funding is in place until the end of June next year. 

Senator ROBERTS: Has this sum been reviewed? It is still in place, but what about the future? 

Ms Harvey: Has the funding been reviewed? 

Senator ROBERTS: Yes. 

Ms Harvey: There has been a broad review of the National Legal Assistance Partnership which was handed down earlier this year, but in terms of the funding to the Northern Territory there are conditions within the National Legal Assistance Partnership that they meet those milestone events and we release the funding to the Northern Territory. They then separately have a contract with NAAJA, for example, which have their own conditions in there. 

Senator ROBERTS: Is the Commonwealth still seeking a reimbursement of some unspent funds, as I have been led to believe? 

Ms Harvey: The Northern Territory, I think, has been in contact with NAAJA and are working that through, in terms of their unspent funds. 

Senator ROBERTS: They’re what? 

Ms Harvey: The funding for legal assistance goes through the Northern Territory government, so they have the relationship with NAAJA about that funding including any underspends that there might be. 

Senator ROBERTS: What’s the amount being sought? Does anyone know? 

Ms Bogart: Being sought in underspends? 

Senator ROBERTS: Unspent money back. 

Ms Bogart: The Northern Territory government is responsible for that under their grant agreement, and they’re working that through with NAAJA. I think they’re in a negotiation about what that amount looks like. 

Senator ROBERTS: So that’s been given to the Northern Territory government, another entity in the chain, and that’s been given to NAAJA, and NAAJA and the Northern Territory government are now haggling over the unspent money. Is that right? 

Ms Bogart: They’re working through the amount and what, if any, can be retrieved back by the Northern Territory government. 

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, what has been the outcome of audits of the agency? 

CHAIR: I’ll need to rotate the call, Senator Roberts. 

Senator McCarthy: I’ll refer to Mr Worth. 

Mr Worth: The audit is currently being finalised, so at this stage there is no outcome. We’re looking to have it finalised by the end of the year. 

Senator ROBERTS: Can you tell me about the nature of the audits: the scope, the purpose, the deadlines? 

Mr Worth: The scope itself, yes. The auditor is reviewing expenditure for the 2022-23 financial year, both the application of funds received for the 2022-23 financial year through the national legal services funding as provided by the Northern Territory government as well as the NIAA funding. 

Senator ROBERTS: Was that after Ms Priscilla Atkins was controversially sacked? 

Mr Worth: Correct. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. 

CHAIR: Senator Roberts. 

*BREAK* 

Senator ROBERTS: Back to the NAAJA, the North Australian Aboriginal Justice Agency—I don’t know how you get your head around all these acronyms!—specifically, what is the nature of the current governance of the agency? 

Mr Worth: Are you seeking the current status of NAAJA’s governance? 

Senator ROBERTS: Governance, yes. 

Mr Worth: We are in regular contact with NAAJA. We have received advice from them that they are looking to hold an annual general meeting later this month, on 27 November, in order to elect new board members. 

Ms Bellenger: But they are registered with ASIC, and ACNC is their regulation body. 

Senator ROBERTS: Who are the voters? 

Mr Worth: The members of NAAJA. 

Ms Bellenger: The members. 

Senator ROBERTS: Is service delivery meeting the needs of the community? As I understand it, it’s suspended at the moment. And is legal representation in court meeting the needs of accused people and in accord with the contract with the Commonwealth Attorney-General? 

Ms Harvey: Throughout the time that we have been working with NAAJA coming out of the kinds of issues that they have been having for nearly two years, service delivery has been a really key focus of ours and so we have tracked it really carefully. We understand NAAJA is now back at full service delivery. For example, I mentioned we were advised by NAAJA in October this year that there are no Aboriginal people going unrepresented in criminal proceedings in the Northern Territory except by choice. I think that is a very strong indication of the service delivery having resumed. 

Senator ROBERTS: So there was a suspension of the services and they have been resumed? 

Ms Harvey: Yes. Toward November last year, I think, there was a temporary suspension of some services. They rebuilt through the end of last year and over the start of this year, and I think it was maybe April— 

Ms Bogart: First of April. 

Ms Harvey: First of April this year they recommenced full service delivery. 

Senator ROBERTS: How long were they suspended? Six months? Twelve months? 

Ms Bogart: November to April, so about six months. 

Senator ROBERTS: Six months, right. Minister, community members in Queensland tell me that taxpayer funds are not reaching the communities. That’s in the Torres Strait, that’s in Cape York, that’s in southern Queensland. Why does the government oppose full audits of Aboriginal agencies and why, in essence, does the government keep feeding the white and black Aboriginal industry of activists, consultants, academics, lawyers, bureaucrats, politicians and others who are effectively barons while ignoring the plight of Aboriginal people in communities who are not getting what they are entitled to? They’re not getting the support they deserve and need. 

Senator McCarthy: Thank you, Senator Roberts. If I could just ask for a breakdown of the particular agencies or departments that they’re not receiving, because there are health departments going out, there are educational departments going out— 

Senator ROBERTS: They’re saying in general. 

Senator McCarthy: Well, they’re taxpayer funds. 

Senator ROBERTS: The money is being hived off to the barons in the white and black Aboriginal industry. 

Senator McCarthy: Alright. If you’d like to give us examples that you have specifically, Senator Roberts, but I do know that taxpayer funding goes right across Queensland—federal government funds as well as state funds. 

Senator ROBERTS: So why won’t you do audits? 

Senator McCarthy: There are audits. The ANAO does its audits with respective organisations, certainly with the land councils that you’re referring to. Questions around audits for land councils actually do occur. 

Senator ROBERTS: My understanding, Minister, is that the ANAO does not do audits. It does scoping assessments, not comprehensive audits. They identify areas of weakness, but they do not do comprehensive audits. 

Senator McCarthy: That is not correct, Senator Roberts, but perhaps I need to refer to those who work in the area. Mr Worth? 

Mr Worth: The ANAO undertakes two kinds of audits on Commonwealth entities. The first ones are financial statement audits, which might be pointing towards the ones you’re talking about with how funds are received and applied through the departments—or agencies, I should call them. The second ones are the performance audits, which are the ones that look at how effective operations, governance arrangements and things like that are and make the recommendations on their findings on those. So there are the two different types of audit. 

Senator ROBERTS: Can I have a list on notice, please, of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander agencies that have been audited in the last five years? 

Mr Worth: Absolutely. 

Senator ROBERTS: The agency, the scope of the audit and the date. 

Senator McCarthy: Absolutely. 

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. 

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Ineffective Use of Funds and Procurement Practices by the NIAA

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During this Senate Estimate session, I inquired about the amount the National Indigenous Australians Agency (NIAA) spent on the unsuccessful Voice Referendum.  The figure was not available. I questioned whether that expenditure might have been more effectively used if directed straight to the communities and expressed concern about the efficacy of the spending.

I highlighted the substantial amounts spent on procurement, noting that Barbara Constructions received $613 million over an eight-year period, while Evolve FM was allocated nearly $497 million. Additionally, Price Waterhouse Coopers, disgraced consultants, received around $50 million.I asked for the total amount spent by the NIAA during that period, which was, of course, taken on notice. I also questioned why, despite billions being spent on NIAA programs, the gap was not being closed. It was reported that $9.5 billion had been spent on procurement. 

I asked whether there was any consideration being given to providing funds directly to communities, bypassing agencies that are not delivering effective results, and offering communities greater autonomy. I did not receive a direct answer to this query.

Transcript

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair. How much money did the NIAA spend on the doomed voice referendum?  

Dr Gordon: Good afternoon, Senator Roberts, I don’t have that exact figure with me, but we’ll be able to get that quickly this afternoon to you. 

Senator ROBERTS: If not, I’ll put it on notice. What difference would that money have made if provided directly to local Aboriginal communities to spend on their decisions and actually make a difference?  

Ms Guivarra:  Senator, although we don’t have the figures with us, you may be aware from previous testimony at other hearings that the majority of the expenditure on the referendum was actually with the Australian Electoral Commission. NIAA received a very small proportion of funding for issues associated with the referendum working group meetings and a civics and awareness campaign. Really, as I said, it was a very small proportion of the overall expenditure on the referendum.  

Senator ROBERTS: My concerns are not only with the amount of money spent but with the effectiveness of it. That’s why I asked the question about whether it would be better spent with the communities. Let’s continue. Looking at NIAA figures obtained through freedom of information—seeking moneys that NIAA spent—why are such large amounts provided to particular contractors? Barpa Construction Services has received almost $613 million.  

Ms Guivarra:  Senator, are you referring to overall expenditure under the Indigenous Advancement Strategy, not related to the referendum?  

Senator ROBERTS: No, overall money that NIAA has spent. I think the previous man said something like 1,200 grants or 2,000 grants.  

Mr Dexter: Senator, I think you might be referring to some information that was released under FOI to do with the Indigenous Procurement Policy over the last several months. The Indigenous Procurement Policy is a whole-of-Commonwealth policy that provides preferential procurement practices for registered Indigenous businesses. Barpa Construction did ring a bell with me as one of the businesses that were released as receiving a certain amount of money.  

Senator ROBERTS: $613 million, I’m told.  

Mr Dexter: I believe that was an amount that Barpa has received through the Indigenous Procurement Policy, which is not necessarily—in fact it’s Indigenous Advancement Strategy money. It’s a collection. The Indigenous Procurement Policy and the reporting under it is a collection of all of the contracts that organisation has received through the Indigenous Procurement Policy.  

Senator ROBERTS: Do you know what they were paid for? If it’s outside your accountability, that’s fine.  

Mr Dexter: No, Senator, I wouldn’t know. That that would need to be directed to the agency that engaged them.  

Senator ROBERTS: What about Evolve FM Proprietary Limited, which received almost $497 million?  

Mr Dexter: That would be in the same category, Senator. There were a number of FOI requests that were made recently which were asking for the aggregate amounts that Indigenous businesses had received through the Indigenous Procurement Policy over the life of the policy. The Indigenous Procurement Policy is a policy that’s been in place since 2015. It’s resulted in about $9.5 billion going to Indigenous businesses over that period of time. I think one of the questions that we got under the FOI was: ‘What are the top 100 businesses that have received money through that policy?’ Evolve and Barpa were both on that list.  

Senator ROBERTS: What about PricewaterhouseCoopers, disgraced consultants, who’ve received almost $50 million?  

Mr Dexter: I’d need to check, Senator, but I would hazard a guess that it was not PricewaterhouseCoopers itself but rather PwC’s Indigenous Consulting, which is a separate entity.  

Senator ROBERTS: Could you check on both those items, please.  

Mr Dexter: I’d be happy to take that on notice.  

Senator ROBERTS: What was the total amount of NIAA money spent over the eight-year period to companies providing contract services?  

Ms Guivarra:  We’ll have to get some other colleagues up for that, Senator.  

Ms Broun: Senator, could you repeat that question?  

Senator ROBERTS: What was the total amount that NIAA spent over that eight-year period to companies providing contract services? That’s the eight years to January 2024. Ms Jackson: I don’t know if we’ve got the eight-year amounts with us. We’d have the last couple of years, which we can go into if you like, but otherwise we can take it on notice. 

Senator ROBERTS: Take it on notice, thank you. Presumably it’s several millions of dollars or hundreds of millions of dollars. With that kind of money and other moneys being injected into Aboriginal wellbeing, why is the gap not being closed?  

Ms Broun: Senator, clearly the evidence is that there are gaps in outcomes for First Nations people. Closing the Gap is designed and has been designed with our partners, particularly the Coalition of Peaks but all states and territories, to address those gaps. I’m a bit confused by your question in terms of ‘there’s some spending here, so that would have changed the outcomes over there’, because obviously there are different outcomes depending on different areas of government as well. I’d like to be a bit more specific about your question.  

Senator ROBERTS: I’m concerned that there’s a huge amount of money being spent, and it’s going through agencies, but it’s not closing the gap. Why isn’t it closing the gap?  

Ms Guivarra:  Senator, the majority of your questions are related to what we’ve done under the Indigenous Procurement Policy. The original intention of the Indigenous Procurement Policy obviously was to support Indigenous businesses, because we know that in fact Indigenous businesses also have a higher employment rate for Indigenous people as well, First Nations people. As Mr Dexter has said, we’ve had a lot of success with that— over 65,000 contracts with a total value of $9.5 billion worth of business going to First Nations businesses as a result of that Indigenous Procurement Policy.  

Ms Broun: You may be aware that in fact the assistant minister launched a review of the Indigenous Procurement Policy back in December. We opened up a consultation process for that review. It closed, I think, around March of this year. We’re going to take the learnings from all of that and see what further improvements we can make to continue what, I think, has been a success story just in relation to the generation of Indigenous business and creation of Indigenous employment.  

CHAIR: Last question, Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: You’re telling me there’s been a review of money given to Indigenous businesses. What I would like to know is: is there a review being conducted, or any idea of a review to be conducted, on spending of all kinds? Could that money instead be going directly to the communities to develop accountability and autonomy? Communities are screaming out for autonomy.  

Ms Guivarra:  Senator, as I indicated, in fact this review and consultation was really to see how we can further strengthen the Indigenous Procurement Policy because, as I mentioned, it has been very successful in awarding business to First Nations businesses and creating employment opportunities for First Nations people.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I acknowledged that and said: can you extend it to a review of all spending? And specifically can you send the money directly to the communities and bypass the agencies?  

Ms Guivarra:  The money associated with the Indigenous Procurement Policy is basically services contracted across all of government. Then it’s for each agency to decide whether they’re seeking to procure services from businesses, including First Nations businesses. The Indigenous Procurement Policy has a mandatory set-aside for First Nations businesses as part of that policy, which applies across government agencies. There has been interest in the community more broadly about what can be done to further to enhance that particular policy, and that’s the purpose of the review.  

CHAIR: Last question, Senator Roberts.  

Senator ROBERTS: Chair, I acknowledged that twice. But what I’d like to know is: is there any consideration being given to reviewing expenditure across NIAA, not just on procurement?  

Ms Broun: Senator, obviously spending on Indigenous outcomes—and this is why we have cross-portfolio here—cuts across all of government to deliver outcomes in specific portfolio areas and specific policy areas. In NIAA we have the IAS, a large part of which has been employment services. Another part is ranger services. To your point, that goes particularly to communities on the ground, so it is focused on those sorts of things. Then there are a whole range of other programs that are supplementary to mainstream funding. But these are services that citizens are entitled to. It depends how you quantify the spending, but the different programs are there to deliver different outcomes for Indigenous people. We could go into the programs that are specifically designed with community and go directly to community, because there are a lot of those sorts of programs as well. They’re not all being delivered through departments, but on the ground as well.  

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. We’ll continue this in the future.  


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Billions Spent and “Closing the Gap” Remains. Why?

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At the recent Senate Estimates, I asked Senator McCarthy about her knowledge of the extensive achievements of Indigenous peoples, to which she affirmed her awareness. However, she was unable to explain why the gap remained despite the billions of dollars being spent to achieve this. Senator McCarthy declined to commit to an audit, despite it being evident that the numerous Indigenous agencies were the cause not the solution to the issue.

Senator McCarthy showed no interest in discussing the substantial funds spent by the NIAA in contracts that seemed to make some individuals wealthy yet did not assist in closing the gap efforts. Once more, I called for a proper and thorough audit and review of the massive spending that failed to improve the quality of life for Aboriginal communities.

I reiterated the necessity for funds to be directly paid to communities, bypassing agencies that have essentially become part of the Aboriginal industry, draining much needed resources from Aboriginal communities.

Transcript | Session 1

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, do you agree with the reality that Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders are hugely talented? They are top in NRL, AFL, arts, business, science and sports; and, in politics, there is a higher proportion of Aboriginals in federal parliament than across Australia.

Senator McCarthy: I do.

Senator ROBERTS: I thought you would; I was hoping you would. I have driven to all Cape York communities twice, and some three times. I’ve flown or boated into Torres Strait Island communities. Minister, do you agree that people in communities care for each other?

Senator McCarthy: I do. Chair, could I ask about the relevance of this to the budget questioning?

Senator ROBERTS: I am getting to that now. Thank you, Minister. An overwhelming majority of Australians in every jurisdiction, except this Australian Capital Territory ivory tower, disconnected as it is from Australians, voted in the Voice referendum that Aboriginals and islanders already have plenty of voices, in addition to the voices of the fine Aboriginal senators in this room. I note that all of them are women.

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, I am struggling to identify the relevance of this question to estimates.

Senator ROBERTS: Aboriginals and islanders have many other voices. Minister, these include registered Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander corporations, 3,521, including 243 native title bodies; 12,966 charities and not-for-profit commissions providing aid to Aboriginals; land councils, 48, not including state land councils; regional councils, 35; Aboriginal—

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, you will need to come to a question because you have gone through so much information and opinion that it will be impossible to discern what the question is. Refrain from making a lengthy statement with excessive commentary, and try and put your question. Thank you, Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, can you consider the possibility that this morass of bodies, often with overlapping, disjointed responsibility, is part of the core problem, not the solution?

Senator McCarthy: No, I don’t, Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: I hope you agree that patronising paternalism and top-down approaches fail to get buy-in of people on the ground, Minister. Isn’t that why such approaches fail, top-down?

Senator McCarthy: I will say that your question is quite patronising and top-down, Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: Failing to get buy-in, top-down approaches fail to get accountability. Is that correct?

Senator McCarthy: I’ve answered your question. Your questions are very patronising. There is no question here that is related to the budget, Chair.

Senator ROBERTS: The Closing the Gap annual report is very clear. There is the total failure in closing the gap, with only four of 17 targets being met, or goals achieved, and some actually worsening. I’m sure you would acknowledge that symbolic gestures and overreach promises have not achieved better outcomes for Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders.

Senator McCarthy: I reject the assertion that symbolism is not important, Senator Roberts. I come from a very strong people, of the Yanyuwa Garrwa people. We’re enormously proud not only of our language but of our history and our current status as artists, dancers and singers. In fact, we have the Malandarri Festival coming up. We celebrate culture and symbolism every day, every year; so I reject your question.

Senator ROBERTS: Perhaps I didn’t explain my question clearly enough.

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, I couldn’t discern a question, apart from the commentary in it. Please come to your question.

Senator ROBERTS: My question was about acknowledging that symbolic gestures are not closing the gap. When I have travelled across communities in Far North Queensland and in the Northern Territory, listening to local Aboriginal people, I found that they know the solution. I was told that there are many people who relied on keeping the gap wide because those people were working the system and their livelihood depended on the ongoing failure of Closing the Gap programs. I recall a Badu Island councillor—I might have told you this before, Minister—who told us that the Closing the Gap campaign ensures that money continues to go into the pockets of consultants, activists, lawyers, bureaucrats, contractors, politicians, academics and advocates, rorting the system of Aboriginal welfare grants and programs to entrench the gap. This hurts the people in the communities. That’s my real concern here—the people in the communities. The Aboriginal industry depends on the gap being maintained, not closed. Minister, are you aware of this?

Senator McCarthy: Senator Roberts, I will say this to you: the whole point behind Closing the Gap is so that the Australian parliament and the Australian community can be aware of the discrepancies between the life expectancy of First Nations people and non-Indigenous Australians, and the unemployment gap, the education gap and the employment gap. That is the whole point of Closing the Gap. There are many levels and many layers of that. The important one that you are a part of is the institution that you are sitting in right now, and that is to hold to account whether Closing the Gap is working or not and whether the gaps can be filled in different ways. Your representation of Queensland as a senator is part of that. Your questions in this Senate estimates hearing to the relevant departments are absolutely critical. I reject outright that Closing the Gap in itself, in terms of our work with the peak organisations, is irrelevant. It is very relevant. It is an imperfect structure, but it is one that is trying to do its best in terms of trying to improve the lives of First Nations people in our country in a collective and transparent way, and it is one that is held highly by this institution called the Australian parliament.

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, I treat my constituents the same, regardless of their background. I listen to them. Many people of Aboriginal descent are telling me that the system is failing; that the Closing the Gap system, the morass of agencies, is actually hindering the closing of the gap.

Senator McCarthy: Senator, you are here at Senate estimates to ask those very agencies those very questions. You may have an opinion dedicated—

Senator ROBERTS: No, it’s not my opinion; I’m telling you my constituents’ opinions.

Senator McCarthy: You may have a view as a result of your constituents, but your question as to what is happening can go directly to an agency. What is the question that constituent is asking you to ask?

Senator ROBERTS: Minister, this government has continually refused to authorise an audit of government spending in this sector. The morass of agencies is doing more damage than—

Senator McCarthy: So those are the words of your constituent: the ‘morass’ and the ‘damage’?

Senator ROBERTS: What is being hidden? Why won’t you conduct an audit of these agencies to help the people in the communities?

Senator McCarthy: We have the Australian National Audit Office. In this institution, high levels of audits are constantly taking place. This Senate estimates process, whether you understand it or not, is another form, and a very important form, of transparency and accountability. You have every agency before you. The minister is trying not to speak to enable you the opportunity to directly ask the questions of the agencies. You have the power to represent your constituency and, Senator Roberts, in the couple of minutes in which you are asking these questions, you are failing to do that.

Senator ROBERTS: That may be your opinion, Minister. Let me tell you that in my questioning of the Australian National Audit Office, they don’t do specific audits; they do overall audits of processes, and that’s it.

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, come to your question.

Senator ROBERTS: I am just answering the minister. Will this government accept the recommendations of the Productivity Commission to move away from bureaucracy at a high level; in other words, from making uninformed decisions from an ivory tower, and do an audit?

Senator McCarthy: It depends on the Productivity Commission report you are referring to, Senator Roberts. The Productivity Commission is there to give advice on how processes occur. The most recent productivity commission that I recall was on a First Nations area and collaboration, and the voices of First Nations people that need to be heard. The Australian people rejected that at the referendum. We have to ensure that the status quo is better.

Senator ROBERTS: When will this group accept the advice from grassroots Indigenous groups such as Western Australia’s Empowered Communities and its chair Mr Ian Trust as to what works and what does not work based on real life experiences and successes? When will it get away from the top-down, patronising, paternalistic approach of so many agencies and get down to what people need?

CHAIR: Senator Roberts, you are putting lengthy statements and commentary into questions.

Senator ROBERTS: When will you start addressing the needs of people in the communities?

Senator McCarthy: Senator Roberts, you said as much in your preamble. You have a responsibility to ask questions of the agencies here—

Senator ROBERTS: And the government.

Senator McCarthy: And the government. You used the example of an individual from far Western Australia, but you didn’t state the purpose behind what they raised. Senator, if you really wanted to improve the lives of First Nations people you would ask questions diligently, and you would do so with the agencies that are relevant to that question.

CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: I have faith; why doesn’t the government have faith in Aboriginal—

Transcript | Session 2

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you, Chair. How much money did the NIAA spend on the doomed voice referendum?

Dr Gordon: Good afternoon, Senator Roberts, I don’t have that exact figure with me, but we’ll be able to get that quickly this afternoon to you.

Senator ROBERTS: If not, I’ll put it on notice. What difference would that money have made if provided directly to local Aboriginal communities to spend on their decisions and actually make a difference?

Ms Guivarra: Senator, although we don’t have the figures with us, you may be aware from previous testimony at other hearings that the majority of the expenditure on the referendum was actually with the Australian Electoral Commission. NIAA received a very small proportion of funding for issues associated with the referendum working group meetings and a civics and awareness campaign. Really, as I said, it was a very small proportion of the overall expenditure on the referendum.

Senator ROBERTS: My concerns are not only with the amount of money spent but with the effectiveness of it. That’s why I asked the question about whether it would be better spent with the communities. Let’s continue. Looking at NIAA figures obtained through freedom of information—seeking moneys that NIAA spent—why are such large amounts provided to particular contractors? Barpa Construction Services has received almost $613 million.

Ms Guivarra: Senator, are you referring to overall expenditure under the Indigenous Advancement Strategy, not related to the referendum?

Senator ROBERTS: No, overall money that NIAA has spent. I think the previous man said something like 1,200 grants or 2,000 grants.

Mr Dexter: Senator, I think you might be referring to some information that was released under FOI to do with the Indigenous Procurement Policy over the last several months. The Indigenous Procurement Policy is a whole-of-Commonwealth policy that provides preferential procurement practices for registered Indigenous businesses. Barpa Construction did ring a bell with me as one of the businesses that were released as receiving a certain amount of money.

Senator ROBERTS: $613 million, I’m told.

Mr Dexter: I believe that was an amount that Barpa has received through the Indigenous Procurement Policy, which is not necessarily—in fact it’s Indigenous Advancement Strategy money. It’s a collection. The Indigenous Procurement Policy and the reporting under it is a collection of all of the contracts that organisation has received through the Indigenous Procurement Policy.

Senator ROBERTS: Do you know what they were paid for? If it’s outside your accountability, that’s fine.

Mr Dexter: No, Senator, I wouldn’t know. That that would need to be directed to the agency that engaged them.

Senator ROBERTS: What about Evolve FM Proprietary Limited, which received almost $497 million?

Mr Dexter: That would be in the same category, Senator. There were a number of FOI requests that were made recently which were asking for the aggregate amounts that Indigenous businesses had received through the Indigenous Procurement Policy over the life of the policy. The Indigenous Procurement Policy is a policy that’s been in place since 2015. It’s resulted in about $9.5 billion going to Indigenous businesses over that period of time. I think one of the questions that we got under the FOI was: ‘What are the top 100 businesses that have received money through that policy?’ Evolve and Barpa were both on that list.

Senator ROBERTS: What about PricewaterhouseCoopers, disgraced consultants, who’ve received almost $50 million?

Mr Dexter: I’d need to check, Senator, but I would hazard a guess that it was not PricewaterhouseCoopers itself but rather PwC’s Indigenous Consulting, which is a separate entity.

Senator ROBERTS: Could you check on both those items, please.

Mr Dexter: I’d be happy to take that on notice.

Senator ROBERTS: What was the total amount of NIAA money spent over the eight-year period to companies providing contract services?

Ms Guivarra: We’ll have to get some other colleagues up for that, Senator.

Ms Broun: Senator, could you repeat that question?

Senator ROBERTS: What was the total amount that NIAA spent over that eight-year period to companies providing contract services? That’s the eight years to January 2024.

Ms Jackson: I don’t know if we’ve got the eight-year amounts with us. We’d have the last couple of years, which we can go into if you like, but otherwise we can take it on notice.

Senator ROBERTS: Take it on notice, thank you. Presumably it’s several millions of dollars or hundreds of millions of dollars. With that kind of money and other moneys being injected into Aboriginal wellbeing, why is the gap not being closed?

Ms Broun: Senator, clearly the evidence is that there are gaps in outcomes for First Nations people. Closing the Gap is designed and has been designed with our partners, particularly the Coalition of Peaks but all states and territories, to address those gaps. I’m a bit confused by your question in terms of ‘there’s some spending here, so that would have changed the outcomes over there’, because obviously there are different outcomes depending on different areas of government as well. I’d like to be a bit more specific about your question.

Senator ROBERTS: I’m concerned that there’s a huge amount of money being spent, and it’s going through agencies, but it’s not closing the gap. Why isn’t it closing the gap?

Ms Guivarra: Senator, the majority of your questions are related to what we’ve done under the Indigenous Procurement Policy. The original intention of the Indigenous Procurement Policy obviously was to support Indigenous businesses, because we know that in fact Indigenous businesses also have a higher employment rate for Indigenous people as well, First Nations people. As Mr Dexter has said, we’ve had a lot of success with that—over 65,000 contracts with a total value of $9.5 billion worth of business going to First Nations businesses as a result of that Indigenous Procurement Policy.

Ms Broun: You may be aware that in fact the assistant minister launched a review of the Indigenous Procurement Policy back in December. We opened up a consultation process for that review. It closed, I think, around March of this year. We’re going to take the learnings from all of that and see what further improvements we can make to continue what, I think, has been a success story just in relation to the generation of Indigenous business and creation of Indigenous employment.

CHAIR: Last question, Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: You’re telling me there’s been a review of money given to Indigenous businesses. What I would like to know is: is there a review being conducted, or any idea of a review to be conducted, on spending of all kinds? Could that money instead be going directly to the communities to develop accountability and autonomy? Communities are screaming out for autonomy.

Ms Guivarra: Senator, as I indicated, in fact this review and consultation was really to see how we can further strengthen the Indigenous Procurement Policy because, as I mentioned, it has been very successful in awarding business to First Nations businesses and creating employment opportunities for First Nations people.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. I acknowledged that and said: can you extend it to a review of all spending? And specifically can you send the money directly to the communities and bypass the agencies?

Ms Guivarra: The money associated with the Indigenous Procurement Policy is basically services contracted across all of government. Then it’s for each agency to decide whether they’re seeking to procure services from businesses, including First Nations businesses. The Indigenous Procurement Policy has a mandatory set-aside for First Nations businesses as part of that policy, which applies across government agencies. There has been interest in the community more broadly about what can be done to further to enhance that particular policy, and that’s the purpose of the review.

CHAIR: Last question, Senator Roberts.

Senator ROBERTS: Chair, I acknowledged that twice. But what I’d like to know is: is there any consideration being given to reviewing expenditure across NIAA, not just on procurement?

Ms Broun: Senator, obviously spending on Indigenous outcomes—and this is why we have cross-portfolio here—cuts across all of government to deliver outcomes in specific portfolio areas and specific policy areas. In NIAA we have the IAS, a large part of which has been employment services. Another part is ranger services. To your point, that goes particularly to communities on the ground, so it is focused on those sorts of things. Then there are a whole range of other programs that are supplementary to mainstream funding. But these are services that citizens are entitled to. It depends how you quantify the spending, but the different programs are there to deliver different outcomes for Indigenous people. We could go into the programs that are specifically designed with community and go directly to community, because there are a lot of those sorts of programs as well. They’re not all being delivered through departments, but on the ground as well.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. We’ll continue this in the future.

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